Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 30 - Terry Hann
This week Paul catches up with long time friend Terry Hann, one of the more innovative photographers who both works full-time running a successful photographic business and puts a great deal of his personal time into chasing more artistic photographic pursuits. Terry has some great methods to hop yourself out a photographic rut and continue growing.
Terry's business website:
https://atkinsphotography.com.au
Terry's personal instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/terry.hann/?hl=en
Terry on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/terry.downunder
Hilary Hann's website:
http://hilaryhann.com.au
Step Hann equestrian:
https://www.facebook.com/InTheSaddlewithStephHann/
Pat Quigley, Terry's original mentor featured on a council website:
https://www.playford.sa.gov.au/explore/playford-news/a-tribute-to-elizabeths-favourite-photographer
Umberto Verdoliva street photographer:
https://www.umbertoverdoliva.it
Adam Marelli:
https://amworkshops.com
http://www.adammarelli.com
Micro Adventures:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microadventure
Are we saying good boy Frankie?
SPEAKER_01:We're saying good boy Frankie because Ernie, the new lab dog, is upstairs.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, the listeners need to know that this is probably the longest break we've had between episodes. Why, Kate?
SPEAKER_01:Because we've been living in literal and actual hell.
SPEAKER_03:It has been 80-hour weeks for a few weeks.
SPEAKER_01:It has been the... I reckon the hardest like physical on my feet labouring work since I sold our house two years ago and I spent a month basically 18 hour days working on that stupid house.
SPEAKER_03:I know. I know. And so we've done all that crazy work and it's not over yet. We're still going. So
SPEAKER_01:the workload is up what? A lot. A lot. A millionty percent.
SPEAKER_03:A millionty percent.
SPEAKER_01:And like biggest leap in work in flux that we've ever had.
SPEAKER_03:And we got a dog. And
SPEAKER_01:we got a dog.
SPEAKER_03:Why do we get a dog in the middle of all of this?
SPEAKER_01:Because dogs, Cavalier King Charles toy poodle crosses.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, my God. Is it really one of those?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that's what it is. What do you mean, oh, my God, is it really one of those? That's all I fucking talk about for months.
SPEAKER_03:Doodle.
SPEAKER_01:It's a cavoodle.
SPEAKER_03:Toy
SPEAKER_01:doodle. Just toy doodle, really. It's a cavoodle, you fuckwad. Listen, he's very beautiful. He is. His name is Ernest. Yes. And he is very earnest. He is. And he's very beautiful. He's six weeks old.
SPEAKER_03:Did we get him from a puppy farm?
SPEAKER_01:No. We got him from some crazy... He looks like a
SPEAKER_03:carrot though, doesn't he? He
SPEAKER_01:does not look like a carrot. He's
SPEAKER_03:got that shape, like
SPEAKER_01:a wedge shape. Do not shame his red hair.
SPEAKER_03:He's got red hair, but he's got a wedge shape too. It's ruby coloured hair, I think you'll find. It's got a big wide bottom and a pointy tail.
SPEAKER_01:He does have a very wide bottom. A pointy head. He has packed his trunk.
SPEAKER_03:And his tail is like a little Christmas tree.
SPEAKER_01:His tail is a small Christmas tree.
SPEAKER_03:Or a sausage, one of the two.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it's very, very, very, very cute.
SPEAKER_03:And we'll send photos.
SPEAKER_01:There are photos already on the ground. Frank is
SPEAKER_03:coping fine. Frank's
SPEAKER_01:loving it. He's living his best life at the moment.
SPEAKER_03:He's living large.
SPEAKER_01:You know, he gets to go to walks on his own. He gets to play with the puppy. He gets to cuddle, something to cuddle when he sleeps. They cuddle together.
SPEAKER_03:They do. They did the first night together.
SPEAKER_01:No, they just did it then. They've only been together one night. They just did it then. They were up there cuddling each other. It's crazy. Like they're brothers. Well,
SPEAKER_03:that's what we want.
SPEAKER_01:That's what we wanted. That's why we got him. We got him because we needed–
SPEAKER_03:Yes, Frank
SPEAKER_01:needed a friend. That's right. So, yes, so this month has been horrible because we're short-staffed and we're also busier than anything on the entire planet. I mean there have been days that I have worked until 3 in the morning– Packing. Like, I'm not working like, I'm doing creative work, so much creative work. No. I am literally wrapping foam around your products, photographers, and I am wrapping them in paper and then wrapping them in plastic and then doing it all again until three in the fucking morning. And my arm is covered in cuts and bruises and horrors from wrapping MDF.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's been heroic, yes. It's been amazing.
SPEAKER_01:It's not just me. Everybody's doing it. You're doing it. You're up at five in the morning bloody printing master fine art all over the joint.
SPEAKER_03:And I had paid four people for 60-hour weeks last week.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's just unhinged. So it'll be a good test to see if we can actually make money whilst being that busy or whether we just end up paying so much fucking overtime that we still don't make any money. And
SPEAKER_03:it's been like the challenge, of course, is to do what we normally do with that volume, like take our time checking things over and making sure it's all right. And I think that's been the biggest thing is the stress of keeping on top of all the things that we normally do with our
SPEAKER_01:products. Yeah, because every time you have to– because, you know, as you like to say, it's all the fish that John West something. We're really old. No one– we've just said a joke about something that happened in the 90s and everybody was saying– It was an advert campaign for tuna. It was born in 2001. And it was a John
SPEAKER_03:West advert and it was like, it's the fist– the fist? The fish– That John West rejects, that makes John West the best. Yes. Whatever it is. Anyway, our wastage, of course, is stellar. Yeah, our wastage is something else. Yeah, that's something we have to work on one time. But that's what makes
SPEAKER_01:the stuff go wrong. Yeah, but I think the problem with the wastage at the moment is that it is distressing to the staff because it takes time and they feel like they don't have any. And I think that's what's hard about it. It's not the cost of it. It's like, fuck, I don't have time to redo this, but I have to redo it. It's a
SPEAKER_03:different kind of cost, but... Yeah, and making it meet the freight deadlines.
SPEAKER_01:And you do– like certainly working in freight, you get like so precious because the cost of redoing it because Australia Post treats all of our packages like footballs and they don't insure anything.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I know. But on that, the amount of damage, it's just like nothing. It's getting there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but part of the reason is because we are basically building a fucking black box quality– construction to put the products in. I mean, we've had... Do not get me started on fucking Australia Post. I'm about to start an anonymous Instagram account where I post all the photographs of the things that they do to our packages. Like where they get a tube that is a half inch thick and they somehow manage to bend it.
SPEAKER_03:But that being said, it is amazing the amount of stuff that's getting there in one piece and not getting damaged by them and... Given
SPEAKER_01:the stress on the system at the moment, yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it is. It's phenomenal. Because every time you do more of something, if you've got 1% reject rate or whatever it might be, then that percentage, the number of packages, the number of complaints, everything goes up. Yeah, I know. And yet I don't think it really has gone up.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I would like to credit it to? What? I've made these really fabulous, very passive-aggressive stickers that we put on all the packages. And they say, stop. If your package is damaged, please take photos before you open it and email them to us. And I think the couriers see that and they go, fuck, we can't kick this one across the room.
SPEAKER_03:Lovely. So talking about dogs. Yes, Ernie. Ernie.
SPEAKER_01:And he drove...
SPEAKER_03:The fastest milk cart in the West.
SPEAKER_01:And there's a couple of old people listening to us right now who will get
SPEAKER_03:that. And I will refrain from singing the entire song.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, thank Christ for that. Even though that is one of the few songs I've
SPEAKER_03:memorised.
SPEAKER_01:The listeners do not need to be exposed to that kind of horror.
SPEAKER_03:So talking about animals and dad jokes. Yes. Our guest.
SPEAKER_01:The king of both.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Terry Han is our guest this week. Correct. Who is... I don't know. Is there a competition for the nicest man in the world?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Has he
SPEAKER_03:won it?
SPEAKER_01:He's one of these men that you think is– like I just look at Terry and I just think he's perpetually like about 27. I
SPEAKER_03:think he is actually.
SPEAKER_01:I think he's just always 27. I mean I think he's part of– he's got that kind of look that he's just a young looking guy anyway. But– I don't know. His whole vibe is 27.
SPEAKER_03:But also, I think what I hope comes out in the interview is the way he lives his life and his attitude to... And we didn't touch on a heap of stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because he's the nicest man on earth. Second only to you, of course. Oh,
SPEAKER_03:sweetheart.
SPEAKER_01:But he is just very... I mean, I'm probably one of the few people that's managed to get any kind of a rise out of him and that was about art when I was lecturing him on art and I think he was like, this bitch needs to go. He's, yeah, he's incredibly generous and quietly calm and sort of unflappable.
SPEAKER_03:No, he's a wonderful person to have around and he's just got ways of doing things that it's just fabulous. And I hope some of that stuff comes out.
SPEAKER_01:And his work's beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:His work is beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:And his wife is incredibly clever and her work is amazing. Yeah, and
SPEAKER_03:I think that both of them, the way some of Terry's methodology and some of Hilary's inspirational work, together they make something better for each other. Even though they're very separate with their
SPEAKER_01:work. Yeah, but they're also very… encouraging and supportive of everybody who is interested in photography they're not sort of elitist and you know there's a there's I find there's a lot of that in the industry there's a lot of well have you got a 52 to a 47 oh my god you're a nick on but you know there's all that kind of judgmental horseshit and there's also a lot of like how many weddings do you have sort of big dick flicking around stuff and and I think Terry and Hilary are They've been doing it for so long they're just like, eh, none of that matters. Just do fun stuff and have fun doing it and maybe there's something nice at the end of it. Everything else just doesn't really matter. And all those people who are swinging their dicks around, they'll also work that out if they stay in the industry long enough. You know, they'll get to that point. But... I think, yeah, having people in the mix that are like that, I think is really important and more photographers who are surrounding themselves in people with people, you know, comparing themselves and that sort of stuff should, you know, try to go along to something where there's. some of those older people in the industry. And I don't want to be like older people, like they're fucking wheeling around in their wheelchairs or something. Because they're not at all. There's young
SPEAKER_03:people in wheelchairs too, you know.
SPEAKER_01:There's young people in wheelchairs. I know. And they're very cool. So it's fine. Oh my God. Yeah, I'm going to get cancelled this week now because of what you just said. And I didn't even say it. I'm not being ableist, okay? Shut up. Don't at me. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's let everyone go and listen to Terry before we put him out I'm here at the office on a quiet first afternoon with Terri Hamm. We've got ourselves some cheese and biscuits which we've realised foolishly that we can't actually sit down and eat because you'll hear us crunching on microphone. So Kate, if you're editing this and you've realised that we need to, it goes quiet for a bit, you know exactly what's happened? We've got a good bottle of whiskey.
SPEAKER_02:It's decent, isn't it? It's a very nice bottle of whiskey.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's fine. That's fine. The reason why I wanted to talk to Terry is Terry has got such a unique perspective on how to make your work, how to change the way you're thinking, how to trick your body into doing different kinds of things with photography and projects. And I reckon everyone needs to hear this and needs to think about it because we all get stuck in our ruts. And from a distance, you might look at what Terry's done and Terry's life as being the same sort of thing from life and photography, the same sort of thing from beginning to end. It's not ended yet, but ending now as in in front of the microphone because it's the worst thing you can actually do. So you could perceive that as a rut. I've just done this one thing. This is what I've done. So could you explain for a start just your career in photography, who you started with and what the interest was? Because you're originally from a farm, aren't you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, from a market garden. Dad was an orchardist market garden and I grew up out there sort of carrying cabbage and collies in the morning, harvesting almonds and onions, peaches, plums, all that kind of stuff. Dad used to lend me money to buy camera gear. So why camera gear? Well, the buggered bit. When did it bite and how did it bite? It was in primary school. We were in year seven and we went to the local high school just to go and see what the big school was going to be like next year. Right. And I did a photography elective and sort of just in the dark room seeing the images come up in the developer room and immediately had an affinity with it. Wow. You know, I just loved it. From there through high school, I'd even got to the stage where the teacher wouldn't be in the class for much and so I used to answer most of the questions because I was part of a camera club and sort of, you know, really fell in love with it until one day the roll call teacher told me that I was needed at the front office straight after roll call And I thought, hmm, what's that all about? And it came up in the student notes. There was a work experience job at the local studio. Wow. So I went down. Because you were running around with a camera and you were interested, clearly. Yes. Yeah, clearly in photography, not in working in the market garden. That was sort of a lot of early mornings hard work. Yeah. Some mornings as a teenager. Yeah. I'd sort of start picking plums at 5 o'clock in the morning before it got too hot. Then when it got too hot, we'd go and pick up onions by hand in the sun. Then in the evening, you'd top and tail them on the machine and then be in the shed until 10 o'clock at night bagging them.
SPEAKER_03:So the work experience thing was like... Were you mentally out of that thought that you're going to do work experience in a photographic studio? Were you mentally like... Yeehaw?
SPEAKER_02:No, because I enjoyed doing it and I'd possibly still be doing a bit of it if Dad was still on the land and I had the time. So it wasn't a case of I didn't enjoy doing it, but it just wasn't my life's direction. So photography was what I wanted to do, hooker by crook. So I went down and did the work experience. So who was that with? That was with Pat and Doris Quigley out at Windsor Studio
SPEAKER_03:at Elizabeth. Yeah, South Australians will probably know of them. Traditional portrait wedding photographic studio.
SPEAKER_02:That's correct, yes, yes. We used to take studio light into the bride's home for a wedding with a studio background. Oh gosh, really? Yeah. So what year was this guest roughly? That was in 1979 that I started to work for Pat. Yep. And I was with him for seven years until he taught me too much. And he was at the sort of the end of his career. He was starting to wind down. And he was sending me to all these different workshops and seminars and, you know, building your spirits up and let's do this and come back and want to set the world on fire and say, let's try this, let's try that. Oh, no, no, I don't think so. He was just happy coasting because he'd been through– he'd been a big studio through the black and white days. Yeah. And
SPEAKER_03:so colour wasn't a great thing for him really or–
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, colour– he sent all of his processing out. Yeah. He did a bit of processing himself just more as a hobbyist thing to do. Yeah. So– He wasn't wanting to build up and sort of make the studio bigger. He was happy with the size that it was. And I got frustrated and I had to leave and start putting into practice all the things that he'd been teaching me. Yeah, yeah. So I did that and he was really good. He'd ring me every couple of weeks and say, when you do your costings, have you remembered to take this into account? Oh, my God, that's great. So, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's interesting, a business mentor– So one of the things I've noticed about you and the businesses you've run that you've always been focused on how this works as a business, as a primary focus, which that's something Pat gave you or was that a market garden thing?
SPEAKER_02:No, pretty much what Pat gave me because he was very much focused on how the costings came about. He didn't just go and do it because it was a fun thing to do unless you wanted to do it as a fun thing. And that was a different thing. That was different altogether. But if you're doing it as a business, you worked out what all of your– what your time was and the film and the processing and what the profit was and, you know, you did all your figures. Nothing elaborate, just all very common sense stuff. Right, right, right. And he was very much into
SPEAKER_03:that. So that left you off on your own and you were tackling– What sort of things? Now, this was mid-'80s, late-'80s? That
SPEAKER_02:would have been, yeah, mid-'80s, mid to late-'80s. Yeah. That I started on my own. It was out at, lived with mum and dad out at Angle Vale. Yep. And I knew that I had to move into the city because I was planning on doing a mobile studio that my catchphrase is, you know, we come to you. Yep. And that way I had a lot larger collection base. Yep. I started doing direct mail from the engagement notices in the paper. Right. It worked really
SPEAKER_03:well back then.
SPEAKER_02:It did. It did. I was getting a 10% success rate on my direct marketing because I was getting the paper and having a piece of mail to the client in the mail that weekend. So then on Monday morning they would be getting something from me. Gosh. So that
SPEAKER_03:was like a crazy way to spend your weekends.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah. Or your Sundays because you were hoping you were shooting weddings on a Saturday. I was shooting weddings on Saturdays, Sundays in the phone book, sort of going through names and addresses and just hoping you could work out who was the right people.
SPEAKER_03:So how many of those would you have sent out on a Sunday?
SPEAKER_02:Probably sent out about 30.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so 30 addresses, names and addresses. Names and addresses. So it'll be Mr. and Mrs. Lutter of Gawler announce their daughter's marrying to Mr. blah, blah, blah. And so you actually have to find the address from
SPEAKER_02:there. Exactly. And then so you just address it to the bride, care of the address of the parents because you just– Yeah. Cool. Yeah. and I would go down to the post office on West Terrace, the major mailing centre. Which
SPEAKER_03:is where you needed to go after hours, sort of,
SPEAKER_02:because that's where the sorting centre was. Yes. And they had different slots where you could post your letters so then they'd be there the next day. They don't do that anymore. You've just got to put it in a street side letter box. Which they actually get there in the first place. And so I'd go down there and so people were getting stuff on the Monday that they'd had their engagement notices in the paper on the Saturday. What was the
SPEAKER_03:response rate from that?
SPEAKER_02:About 30%. Okay, so you would have
SPEAKER_03:had 10 bookings from–
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Saturday. And that was back in the days of a free sitting, free 5-4. Yeah. And I then followed that up with a promotional offer for an engagement portrait. Yeah. If I was a better salesperson, I'd have booked a lot more weddings and sold a lot more photos. Right. But I took a lot of photos and booked a few weddings and it built up business and that was the basis of my wedding portrait business.
SPEAKER_03:So that was the base of it, but really it was about you being sort of a reliable, consistent person that people were interested in using. Word of mouth got the work, not so much the fact that you're a salesperson.
SPEAKER_02:No, that's right. And I would do a lot of weddings from bridesmaids who were in other weddings and family members. And when you do a wedding, you get a bit of a patter. going to get people organised. And I'd often get told off and say, you've used that line before. You used that on my sister's wedding. And you're like, oh dear, I've got to try and develop some more talking skills. But it was all part of the game.
SPEAKER_03:So then what happened after... The wedding portrait because did Pat retire at that stage?
SPEAKER_02:No, no. He still had his business. He did eventually retire. Yeah. But he was still doing his weddings and portraits and not doing as many. But he'd been investing from the early days and so he retired early. you know, quite well. Yeah, yeah. And so we still kept in touch, not as often as I'd have liked. It was funny. He was always wanting me to travel back when I worked for him.
SPEAKER_03:So encouraging you to go afar.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. He said, oh, yeah, well, you know, you've got your holidays coming up. Why don't you go overseas, go to New Zealand or Thailand or somewhere, you know, go somewhere adventurous. Oh, no, no, no. I really want to stop and see Australia and do all of that. Uh, and then, uh, it was three years ago. Uh, I was going to go and see him. Um, uh, Doris had died several years ago. Yeah. Uh, and Pat was in a, in a home, uh, in, um, Prospect, I think it was. And I was going to go and see him before heading off on a trip. And I thought, no, no, I'll wait till we get back because we were going to Chad. Something to talk about. Yeah. I thought it would be nice and impressive to say, hey, Pat, I've been to Chad. You've never been there. Do you know where it is? And unfortunately I came back and had a Facebook message from his daughter saying, oh, Dad died. You know, his funeral was on Wednesday. I thought I was, you know, in Chad. It's a good excuse. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So what happened between then and Chad? So when you left there, you didn't leave there, you were still shooting your own stuff and
SPEAKER_02:you're still shooting. There's nothing changed. No. You're not doing weddings though. Not doing weddings. I do one or two every five or six years and that's mainly people that I've known. Yeah. But I don't go chasing weddings. Yeah. When I started up my own business, John– your father, approached me and said, hey, do you want to work at the races on a Wednesday doing the photo finish?
SPEAKER_03:Which is a good part-time part of whatever else you're doing.
SPEAKER_02:I thought it was a great idea because suddenly I had cash flow. Nobody gets married on a Wednesday.
SPEAKER_03:They do at the moment
SPEAKER_02:with COVID. Yes, but back then weddings were on Saturdays. If you were lucky, there was a Sunday as well, but it was pretty much all Saturdays. So I jumped at the chance and said, yes, I'll– I'll work at the races, get paid for doing it.
SPEAKER_03:So what year was that, do you think?
SPEAKER_02:That would have been… Was it late 80s? Late 80s. 88, 89, somewhere around there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't long after that you actually bought the business from us.
SPEAKER_02:No, well, it was from there. Hilary was the manager. Yep. So sort of, you know, basically married the boss and bought the business. Yeah. I'd known who Hilary was prior to that because she was president of the South Australian Institute of Professional Photography. That's right. She was president of that stage, yeah. And I remember her in that role. Yeah. But I didn't know her. I just knew who she was. Yeah. But then working for–
SPEAKER_03:Because you were part of AIPP. You were also part of Portrait Maker. I was, yes. Which was the wedding portrait– Offshoot from AIPP because AIPP was very commercially focused. Or
SPEAKER_02:IAP as it was back then. IAP back then,
SPEAKER_03:yeah. And interestingly enough, or not interesting, whatever you want to think of it, the rise of the portrait maker was because AIPP wasn't really looking after wedding portrait photographers and they felt like we need an association just for us.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. They needed to do something and so they set up, it was initially the South Australian Wedding Portrait Group. I think is what they called themselves. And then it moved,
SPEAKER_03:and then there was a Melbourne involvement, and then it was
SPEAKER_02:Perth. And then, yeah, the Melbourne involvement, Melbourne were Portrait Maker, and that's when South Australia changed their name to Portrait Maker to sort of be branded similar and do cross-promoting with Victoria.
SPEAKER_03:So Hillary was president at that stage. You two were working together and struck a relationship, and... And then you guys bought the business, which puts you in the world of not being a wedding portrait photographer as much as you were. No,
SPEAKER_02:I still did the occasional wedding because once you get the ball rolling, you still have some referrals and everything come through from older weddings and you pick them up. You don't want to stop that stuff. No, no. It was all good income that was coming in. So you never say no. You just sort of keep working it. And when we bought the business, the business being Atkins Racing, we know that. And the
SPEAKER_03:listeners may not know that we're talking about Hilary Hand as well, who has also been a guest on a previous version of this podcast, but should talk to again. And Hilary's her own wildlife photographer. Everything. I
SPEAKER_02:go to photographic functions and I'm known as Hillary's husband. I go to horse events and my daughter's a very good rider. I'm known as Steph's father. I struggle to go somewhere wrong. And you get to be Terry. Oh, not often. At the races.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, this is an interesting point because this is what we're really going to talk about. And it's not to belittle the Terryness of Terry. But you do– you've always– because you worked for Pat and you were doing what Pat had done and he taught you those sorts of way you do things. And I think in some ways you would have followed that beautifully and put your own self to it. But, like, in all of that, at what stage did you start doing, like, things that were uniquely ideas that you had generated and, hey, I'm going to be this sort of a type of photographer? Because you're now– meddling in street photography and contemporary art. Yes. And you're having like a great run of producing this sort of work. When did that sort of come about?
SPEAKER_02:That came about one time. Hilary was off on safari in Kenya. As you do. As you do. And I was left at home holding the fort. Yeah. You had kids too? Yeah, I had the kids. How old were they at that stage? Oh, jeepers. I don't know. She's gone that often. One of those men. Yeah, that would have been, you know, 10, 12, 14 or something. Right, right. At that age, we'd had them doing their own washing and ironing. Brilliant. And everything to, you know. We must take notes on that. So, yeah, I can't really remember because they've always sort of got in and done stuff. And with Steph, with the horses, she's always been out. working them she's never just been there to ride them you know so I'm not sure the age but she was off on safari and I was home in bed flicking through photos on the iPad and I saw some photos of some street photos of a guy an Italian guy called Umberto Vidalva I think it is and I'm writing this down if everyone
SPEAKER_03:hears the scratching of a pencil. We'll put a link in the show notes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. And he did some street photography that wasn't just people walking past a graffitied wall in the right step or something. I remember there was one shot that he had a wrecking ball at a demolition site that filled up half the frame. and filling up the other half of the frame was the back of the head of a bald guy who was looking at it. And it really had humour. It sort of took the whole street photography thing to the next level. That's great. And I thought, oh, there's something here. I'm really enjoying that. And then I thought I'll try and do some because you don't need to go anywhere. You can do it in your own town.
SPEAKER_03:Is it easier in your own town, do you think?
SPEAKER_02:No, I think it's more difficult because you're so used to seeing, to having the things around you that you don't see what's there. You just know that it's there.
SPEAKER_03:So you kind of ignore what's around you. Yes. Familiarity and all that.
SPEAKER_02:But once you go often and looking and you start seeing these things, I think it trains you for when you do go to another place. Yeah. that you're not just getting carried away by the Eiffel Tower. You know, you can look and see things deeper and with a lot more interest.
SPEAKER_03:So how do you– is that just by going back and thinking– because the problem with all of us photographers, we carry our cameras because that's what we're told to do. And, you know, you think you're going to get something because the best camera is the camera you have and all that kind of stuff. But that doesn't– Because you become familiar with the situation. You drive past things. So what were you doing to sort of take– well, without getting on a plane going somewhere else. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:What I was doing instead of getting on a plane, I was getting on a bus. On a bus. Because I found that if I drive– I live about half an hour out of the city centre. Yeah. And I drive everywhere because by the time I come into the city and I have to go from place to place to place to do your rounds, you don't have time for public transport. You've just got to drive around and do it. And Adelaide's easy to get around anyway. But I found that by going into the city centre to photograph, if I caught a bus, I'd be in a different frame of mind by the time I arrived because I wouldn't have to worry about where the car was parked. You'd sort of lost that link with home in a way and you were kind of stranded, you know, in the city. Right. You didn't have to catch the bus from a certain bus stop. You could catch the bus from any spot on the route that it was on and you could catch another bus, a tram or a train off to somewhere else. Right. So you had a lot more freedom and... By doing that, your frame of mind was opened up and you could start to see different things. It was kind of like being on an aeroplane and flying somewhere and arriving in a new city. But you arrived in the city that you knew, but it still looked a bit different.
SPEAKER_03:There's a movement for this sort of travel, isn't there, where you've got to take the train to the end of the line. Yes. Sort of an idea. Micro-adventures. Micro-adventures, yeah. Was that a part of what you were thinking or what tricked you into doing this?
SPEAKER_02:I had thought of those micro-adventures. I thought it sounded like a lot of fun. I couldn't find the end of a railway line that looked appealing. Yeah, around here they're not that appealing, are they? No. It's not like we get to Coney Island or... No, we're limited on choice. So the thing that... first had me doing it is I thought I would start taking Fridays off because photographing at the races, it was every Saturday as well as every Wednesday and every public holiday and working from home, you're always at work.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, just run us past a typical race day, like a typical day of work for you at the races because it's a pretty packed day, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:It's a very hectic day. It's changed from the old film days where you'd photograph the race lean up against the fence post, have a chat to the owners, take orders and come home with an order book full of orders and a wallet full of checks and cash and credit card dockets. Yeah, yeah. These days it's all done online. Yeah. But normally I'll arrive at the track an hour and a half before the first race.
SPEAKER_03:So it's about nine in the morning or
SPEAKER_02:something like that? No, normally I'd get there depending on the thing. I normally get there around about sort of 10, 30, 11. Okay. But
SPEAKER_03:they're not always central. Sometimes you have to travel
SPEAKER_02:a bit to get to the track. Sometimes a couple of hours away to get to the track, which is fine. It's just being a couple of hours home afterwards is a bit tiring. But yeah, so you get to the track, set up the computer with all the– I'd have a template ready to go for the race day. So once I've shot the race, I just drop them into the relevant folders. I've now got a– camera that I set up under the running rail that's remotely operated. So it's
SPEAKER_03:just you covering a race?
SPEAKER_02:Generally, it's just me.
SPEAKER_03:But you now double that up by having a second remote-controlled, remote-triggered
SPEAKER_02:camera. A remote-triggered camera. So when I fire one camera, it fires the other one as well. But I set that up and leave it. We're
SPEAKER_03:also shooting some other action shots as well as part of the
SPEAKER_02:event? I have two cameras set up that I use so I can get a close-up action shot of the winner. and then a wider shot at the winning post. Yep. And then do, in normal times, do owner's photographs in the mounting yard, but of course they can't come to the track, or they can come to the track and they can't get to the horses in COVID times. All right, so this
SPEAKER_03:year the whole thing's pivoted a bit, but let's go back. back when it was normal. You would then chase them down, would you?
SPEAKER_02:When it was normal, they would be down to greet the jockey as the jockey dismounted. They'd be there with the trainer and I'd get them all out and do a photograph with the owners, the jockey trainer and the horse. take the photographs. Nice group photo, yeah. Yeah, yeah. If I knew the people, then I'd have their contact details. If I didn't, I'd either get their details or give them a card.
SPEAKER_03:How familiar, like is it a process where you know most of the people involved?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah. So it's a return business type of thing, is it? Yes, yes. I know a lot of the people, you know, hugging and kissing with all the ladies and a handshake and a chat with all the guys. You know, you tend to know everybody after a while. Yeah. The hard part is somebody new that you see for a couple of times then you don't see them for six months and they remember you but you can't remember who they are. So you must have a
SPEAKER_03:couple of tricks for... Like, I'm sorry, I just don't remember you.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, no, no, no. Generally don't do that. Yeah. So you pretend to know them? If somebody talks to me on the race day, I hope they know racing people listening to this. I'll say, oh, that's great. You got a runner in today? He said, oh, yeah, what race? I said, oh, yeah, race five. He said, oh.
SPEAKER_03:One
SPEAKER_02:of seven people. Paul, yeah, good barrier draw, good jockey, haven't you? Yeah, yeah. And so you've got the name in the race book. Oh, look, everybody struggles with this. And I only mention it because
SPEAKER_03:there's so many people sort of identifying themselves as not being able to remember names or being a bit introverted and struggling with that. And you've never– I mean, I don't know if you have, but you never appear to struggle. Whether it be not remembering, you've just got to weigh about to that– You'd never bother anyone about if you couldn't remember
SPEAKER_02:their name. No, I try and remember people's names. If I see somebody coming towards me, I'll often refresh the name in my mind. But if they suddenly walk around the corner and they'll say, oh, hi, Terry. And I say, hi, Jim. Oh, no, Tim. And it can sometimes just… Just throw you off. But, yeah, I always try and remember people's names as much as I can.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. It's a thing. I mean, it's a people business that we're in as– Photographers, I think, generally, unless you're photographing buildings, unless you're like Peter Barnes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, go out and do the buildings. But still you have to deal with people because they're commissioning the work. Exactly. The buildings don't buy the photographs. It's the people that do. Yeah. So it's still a people business.
SPEAKER_03:So we're going through that day. You would see them. There would be seven, eight, nine races. Yep. You then, at the end of the day, you would have packed up and then come back. To home. You'd be back by five, six o'clock or something.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, seven or eight o'clock depending on the track. They're big days. They are. They're big days. And after every race, I'm posting a photograph to Facebook and Twitter with a quick little blurb. So these are some
SPEAKER_03:of the things you've changed as part of the process. Because obviously you pick up the latest marketing tools as you go. And there would have been a bunch of other marketing tools in the past. 20, 30 years you were doing it. Yes. That you kept picking up and changing. But right now, like this is really challenging for you guys. We thought the racing industry wasn't going to happen with the lockdowns.
SPEAKER_02:No, no. And surprisingly, the COVID has been good for us because it's made us do something different. Right. Whereas I think the last time we changed radically what we were doing is back when the horse flu was about.
SPEAKER_03:So, okay, let's just look at that last time we changed something. The products you're offering to your clients, how much have they changed over the years?
SPEAKER_02:Some of them not a great deal. Yeah. We're still doing frames that we were doing 30 years ago. It's amazing, isn't it? And we'd kept on doing them because people were saying that they liked them and thought, well, we can't change them. It's a slow conservative industry in some ways, isn't it? Exactly. And they want... their frames to match what they've had in the past. Right, right. And so we hadn't changed much. Yeah. We had a meeting with some other photographers who use the same website host that we use. Yeah, yeah. And we all got together. They showed us what they were doing and they were very good. They've helped us out no end with frames and styles and products and we changed everything. added to what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03:So has that made your range bigger?
SPEAKER_02:Made our range bigger. It's
SPEAKER_03:not the best thing in the world, is it, to expand? It's
SPEAKER_02:not, but although the range is larger, it's still confined. It's not a case of there's an endless variety of frames. It's a greater variety but within limitations. Yeah. So how's the
SPEAKER_03:marketing changed? Because people can't go to the racetrack, can they? No. Well, they could in early days. They can now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. A lot of the people, we've had their email addresses. So if you've ordered before, then we'll have your details and we would contact you and say, hey, we have your photographs. And we'd send out the proofs and then they'd order. and more and more people are ordering via the website because of the new products. Wow. And that sort of picked up. Great. Guns, you know, we're sort of doing really well.
SPEAKER_03:That's great. It's amazing to think– I mean, was there any– did you think that perhaps they should have changed sooner and started chasing new products down?
SPEAKER_02:No, if we'd have– if you'd have changed sooner, we probably would have done something totally different. Right. And– might not have looked as polished as what it is we've picked up from others.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It's also interesting that you've collaborated with other similar businesses because that was not a common thing in the industry, in the horse racing photography industry. No,
SPEAKER_02:there aren't many horse racing photographers.
SPEAKER_03:So how many are there in
SPEAKER_02:Australia? Oh, there's one in each state pretty much. Five. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are sort of others that do the smaller outlying areas, but generally there's one per city that covers most things. Right, right. So it's very difficult to get together. But it was amazing when we got together, you automatically knew what everybody's problems were and there was sort of a unity before we'd even really met. Was there a
SPEAKER_03:sense of relief with everybody that you'd finally talked?
SPEAKER_02:It was for us because here we've got nobody to talk to. We can talk to photographers. We can talk to wedding photographers, commercial photographers, you know, all sorts who know the photography industry but not knowing the racing industry to know what the unique problems are there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So with that side of your life, that's a business, isn't it? That's not an outlet for your photography, right?
SPEAKER_02:No, that's a business. That's doing things in a repeatable fashion. If I did something as a creative outlet for photography, I may get one great creative photograph a day and then they'll say, oh, I love that. Can I have one? Oh, no, sorry, that was a one-off. It needs to be repeatable. So it's
SPEAKER_03:really interesting. It needs to be repeatable for it to work as a business. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And much like weddings, well, the way I used to shoot weddings is you had your shot list. People and situations would change, but you still needed to get a photograph of the full length of the bride to show her dress and a photo with mum and a photo with dad. And you had your shot list that you had to get, but it varied. Did
SPEAKER_03:you set that shot list up– based on conversations with your couples before you went out and shot? And did that cause it to change much or was it you just knew that's what you had to do? I
SPEAKER_02:knew that's what I had to do because Pat had told me. And, you know, you write it down and keep it in your camera bag. Yeah. And when you go and change your roll of film, just pick up your little cheat sheet and just make sure you've got everything that you need. Yeah. Because you can't go back and reshoot it.
SPEAKER_03:Not a wedding. No. Not a wedding. Because I know there's– There's a lot of discussion these days with weddings about a change in the feeling for weddings. There seem to be, and I could be generalising here, but there seems to be less pressure on a big traditional wedding, partly because we can't gather so many people together. So people are being forced to have some choices. Do I have a smaller wedding? Do I have a wedding at all? Do I have an elopement? And then couples are quite headstrong and less... I'm really generalising here, but potentially less interested in what their parents might want from a wedding and more interested in what they want to do for a wedding. I mean, you're not shooting weddings now. What I've heard is such a variation in what a wedding looks like these days that almost the shot list is a hard thing. But it'd be hard to miss out on the picture with grandma and the picture with...
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the shot list I think these days would just change. You may not have as rigid a shot list as I had because we would shoot seven rolls of 120 film with 12 exposures on it and that covered the whole wedding. But I would imagine, as you say, I'm not shooting weddings anymore, but you would still have on your shot list the bride and groom walking down the aisle, throwing the confetti, that type of thing to be ready for because... From wedding to wedding, the situations are predictable that this happens, then that happens, and then it all moves along. And things like signing the register, I used to always pose it. People may not pose it these days, but I'm darn sure they'd go down and they'd still be photographing it as it happens so that it'd still be part of their shot list.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So did you struggle with that consistency of what you had to do, that you had to deliver this shot list, you had to– You have to go to the races. Do you struggle with that as a person doing a job? Not really
SPEAKER_02:because photographically the races doesn't scratch the creative itch. It could dull it though. It could take the itch away. No, because I'm there for the people. For me it's a big social event. to say hello to as many people as you can and sort of laugh and smile and chat. But you've still got your photographs that you need to get and you just make sure that you get this one here and that one there. When the horse is running towards you, you never know which one's going to win. So it's always a challenge to make sure you get the right one. Unless they're six lengths in front, then it's a bit easier. Yeah, yeah. But so
SPEAKER_03:you're challenging yourself with those little bits of the game.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and even things like when you get a photograph of the horse walking, you want to try and get the feet looking nice and the head up and the ears pricked.
SPEAKER_03:So what does a horse's feet looking nice look like?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I always try and get them so then it's like sort of two Vs, inverted Vs. So you've got one foot forward, one foot back, one foot forward, one foot back, and it just makes the horse look a bit balanced. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So you've been watching these little rhythms, trying
SPEAKER_02:to work out how it works best. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then you look at your result and think, oh, I'm a bit off today. I've got to photograph before they lift that foot rather than afterwards. Yeah, yeah. And things like
SPEAKER_03:that. And you're a prolific note taker, so... Does that trick your brain so when you go back out again you read your notes?
SPEAKER_02:I don't do as many notes for the races because I'm doing it two or three times a week and sort of seven, eight, nine times a day doing the same thing over and over. It's only when introducing something new I'll have a note to make sure I remember to take a photograph of this or that just to try and add something new to the repertoire.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So the– That sorts out, in my mind, I've got a good feeling for that side of it. When you started to do actually a bit of travelling and getting some interest in street photography, was this the sort of thing that scratched that photographic itch? Because it had been a long time you'd been just working as a photographer.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it had been a long time. And I think the most difficult part is that I'd been working as a photographer for so long for... payment yeah that to go out and do photographs for yourself for the hell of it it sort of it took a long time to get your head around the fact that oh i could make a dollar out of this well no no as soon as you start putting a monetary thing on doing something for yourself you're starting to make it into a business uh and and take that creativity out of it yeah yeah um so i think that's one of the the appealing things too that What's the market for street photography? Well, unless you're going to make a YouTube video and sell advertising space. Yeah. There's not a great deal. It's really got to be just for yourself. Yeah. And that challenge of nailing the shot.
SPEAKER_03:So you take it super seriously. Like you went and learnt another language and you've tried a couple of different languages, haven't you? Yes. So why did you do that and what was that in service of?
SPEAKER_02:Well, initially I went to Venice in 2015, I think it was, to do a photographic workshop with an American guy called Adam Morelli.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I've got to write that name down because Adam's– Adam's a great
SPEAKER_02:educator. He's a very good educator. He taught me stuff that– concepts that I just hadn't even considered, never even heard of. But getting back to the language, I thought I'll start learning a bit of Italian because I didn't want to just turn up and be the English speaker that had no idea what was going on.
SPEAKER_03:But is that part of the game of I'm going to do street photography in Italy– And the part of the game is I want to learn Italian.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it is part of that, but also if you're going to do street photography in Italy and you're going to do it for two weeks in 2025, if you start learning Italian now, you've suddenly got five years that that two weeks is that you're going to be able to milk. Wow. And get more experience out of. So it broadens the whole thing. Yeah. And, I mean, I'm nowhere near fluent. I couldn't hold a decent conversation in Italian. But you can order a pizza. I could order a pizza. I could order an ice cream. So you'll survive. Find the toilet. My iPad broke. I managed to get that fixed in Italian. Yep. So, you know, just little conversational things. Yeah. Buy tickets for the ferry and the bus. So you're in Venice? Yeah. In Venice for that, I was, yes.
SPEAKER_03:And how was the whole experience of– I mean, you were there for a workshop, which is– you're not there to shoot straight by yourself. You were there to learn stuff.
SPEAKER_02:So it was a bit different. It was a bit different, but the workshop was three or four days. And I thought, you can't go to Venice for three or four days to do a workshop. You've got to get there sort of three days early to overcome the jet lag and have some of the culture shock wear off. So you're not going to be wandering around. In fact, the streets are water. Exactly. So you go splash. And you don't want to be walking along in a workshop and say, oh, a gondola, a gondola. You want to get a bit of that touristy stuff out of your system. Yeah. So I got there three days early. And then you can't go all the way to Venice to a workshop and not stay for three or four days afterwards to put into practice what you'd learnt. Yeah, right. So I had about 10 days that I was there. And that was just fascinating.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So photographically, is that a really good place to play?
SPEAKER_02:I find it very difficult. Really? Yeah. When I first got to Venice, I didn't like it. Why? It was like a 1,500-year-old Disneyland. It was just full of tourists everywhere. The walls were crumbling and I just didn't like it. Salt dab. Yeah. Don't know where that would come from. But the longer that I was there, the more that it sort of got under your skin and you sort of get into a bit of the ebb and the flow and you wander around. And I remember one morning going for an early morning walk and I was following two little old ladies and they were just on their way to work chatting. And I thought, I recognise these two ladies. Oh, right. So you'd actually seen them before? I'd seen them before and then it twigged where it was. Oh, they're the beggars at the foot of the Academia Bridge. Right, right. And they were just, you know, wandering off to work before setting up shop and begging. So have you gone back to Venice? Yes, went back this time last year, September last year. Right, great. I went back with mum and dad and my elderly parents. Yep. Their first
SPEAKER_03:trip overseas?
SPEAKER_02:No, they'd been overseas before, but they'd only ever done package tours. Right. So they went package with Terry. Yeah. I said, we're not doing a package tour. Off to Rome and spent three days in Rome, catch the train up to Venice. Yeah. And we just took an apartment and stayed in the apartment, cooked some meals, ate some meals out, got takeaway for others. Did
SPEAKER_03:that feel like, though, you could shoot street photography with other people around?
SPEAKER_02:It very quickly became obvious it was a trip with mum and dad that I was taking pictures on than being a street photography trip that mum and dad were coming. So does the same
SPEAKER_03:thing happen when you travel with Hilary or anyone else?
SPEAKER_02:No, no. Hilary's a photographer. Yeah. And so she can wander off. So you're walking down the street and... And I could be looking for a scene and I could stand there and wait for 10, 15, 20 minutes. She understands what you're standing there and waiting for and she's doing the same sort of thing. Whereas I'm waiting for the right person to stand in front of the Prada poster. At other times I'll be waiting for her because she's waiting for the cat in the window by the ornate door and to look the right direction. Yeah. You know, things like that.
SPEAKER_03:That really does help. And do you find that– I mean, she's got a lot of experience in East Africa– And you've been back there with her. You've been on safari with her. Yes, several times. Yeah. And do you find she's been a bit of a guide in that world? And have you shot similar stuff or have you been tackling different things?
SPEAKER_02:That's one of the things. You often get similar stuff because you're at the same location. It's a camera club trip. Yes. And then it comes up for the APO Print Awards and who's going to put their shot in of whatever scene because we've both done the same. or I'm getting told off for getting a better scene out my window and not telling Hillary. Where did you get that from? Oh, you're doing that. You didn't tell me. Married life. Exactly. So
SPEAKER_03:the travel, where would you like to go back to and shoot now? If
SPEAKER_02:you could get rid of the pandemic. Assuming the pandemic was over, I'd love to go back to Africa. I'd really love to spend some more time in the bush. So what is it, the wildlife or the people? Well, there aren't many people around when you're out in the bush. In the cities, there are a lot of people. In the bush, it's the wildlife and the solitude and just the sound and the smells and the animals. So photographically, though, how does that
SPEAKER_03:push the buttons?
SPEAKER_02:Photographically, it's a case of... We're here. We've got to make the most of what we can get. So you start to become more creative if there's not much happening.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02:Because you've got to make use of the time, which sometimes is a bit of a shame because often I'll come back and think, wouldn't it be nice to have just sat under that thorn tree and had a gin and tonic and not been in a rush to find something? Yeah, of course, of course. So it– It forces you to become more creative and look harder and find things. Yeah. But it's, yeah, and it's just that whole atmosphere of being out in the wilderness.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right. So, I mean, I wouldn't class that particularly as a challenge, although you probably feel like you don't want to waste your time. You're always trying to challenge yourself with your photography. What are you doing at the moment? I mean, we've had a really weird year. You can't go to Africa. You can't really go anywhere. What have you been doing to challenge yourself?
SPEAKER_02:To try and get my creative buzz, I've been getting up at 4 o'clock on a Tuesday morning. There's no buzz in that. There's the buzz of the alarm and then hitting it to go back to sleep. And sleeping on the sofa so I don't wake anybody else up. And heading down to track work at Morpheville at the moment. So
SPEAKER_03:that's when the horse come out early in the morning and do their
SPEAKER_02:first exercise? When they do all of their training, generally it's under lights before the sun comes up. And so you can get some lovely lighting conditions with just rim lights of the floodlights. They come back and they get washed down and they use hot water. So steaming water. So you get the horses are steaming, the water's steaming. You just get this lovely flow of people. And it's just lovely. So that's,
SPEAKER_03:like, for anyone who doesn't know South Australia, Morfaville's quite close to the city. Yes. You know, sort of 15 minutes out of the city, 10 minutes out of the city, and you can sort of go there and see something that's quite unique to what we're all used to seeing going
SPEAKER_02:on there, you know, big animals doing… Big animals, lots of people, and it's a real hive of activity at sort of 4 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, so
SPEAKER_03:creatively, what are you trying to get out of going down there with a camera?
SPEAKER_02:I'm trying to get something that's possibly going to be suitable for an exhibition or a book just to try and I suppose have a purpose for going and doing it. I've been through only a very few photographs. I haven't been through many at all because I'm trying to distance myself between the emotion of having taken the photograph and what the viewer is going to see it with their eyes in the first time. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:So how long do you leave it from– From shooting it to seeing them?
SPEAKER_02:Three, four, five, six months. Oh, gosh, that's huge. I'll sometimes have a quick look through if there's something I'm really pleased with. I'll have a quick look when I get home on the computer just to make sure that it's going to be worth looking back on. But I'll just let it sit there and distill. Because sometimes you take a shot and think, oh, it's fantastic, I've nailed this. This is going to win me an award. and then you come back to it and think, oh, it might have if it was in focus. Right, right. But that emotion overtakes everything else. Right. So I just want to get rid of that and just let them sort of mature and mellow and go back through them.
SPEAKER_03:That's a good challenge. And it's something physical. It's taking you and your body into a different place, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. And also, too, the people that I see on race day– It's always a very quick hello and a very quick chat because everybody's in a rush on race day. This also I see the people in a different light. Literally. And so I'm sort of mixing with the same people. Yeah. But just doing different things. So it's work
SPEAKER_03:adjacent in that way. Yes,
SPEAKER_02:yes. And a lot of people have, interestingly, they say, oh, where can I see these photographs that you're taking? Oh, sorry, you can't. I haven't seen them yet. And what's their response? Well, I think that's getting more interest. So you found a way to market it as an idea. Yeah, so it could be, you know, nothing's happened yet, but it could be a case if I do have an exhibition, a lot of people may come because they want to see what I've been up to. Right. If it was on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter, well, it just gets flicked over. Yeah. And so, yeah, I've seen that. You know, I don't need to go and see the exhibition.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. And what would be the perfect result of a project like that? Like what would– in your mind, if you have dreams about, oh, it's going to be–
SPEAKER_02:I don't know. At this stage, it's a case of– The photographic experience. Right. To be there. Going through the motions. Going through the motions. And I'm using one camera, one lens. So what sort of camera are you using? I'm using a Fuji X-Pro2. Right. With a 35mm 1.4. So it's... Same lens, same body. Same lens, same body. It's essentially a nifty 50 on a full frame. Yeah. And so you zoom with the feet. And you just tend to pick up more ideas. Sometimes you get there and you can't see... What am I doing here? We've got breakfast, don't you? You have a cup of tea and a biscuit and then the light has changed and then if you stand at an intersection where people and horses come and go, then when you start shooting there, you can get sort of a bit of depth of horses and people and expressions and things like that. And you think, oh, why hadn't I seen that before?
SPEAKER_03:That's great. Yeah. That's great. Have you got anything else in the back of your mind that you're dying to– a project that you're dying to hop onto that might be sort of poking your way at these creative juices? Or do you find these things pop up just out of nowhere?
SPEAKER_02:They pop up. I've been working on other photographic stuff, some fine art– what would you call it– more abstract sort of stuff and I shoot that but I need to do another 10,000 of them before the images start to really have a lot of meaning. Yeah, right. You know, I've done some and I'm very happy with them and very pleased with what they are but I don't feel as though many of them have enough depth. for people to look at it and say, oh, yeah, that's a great image because of this or that. It's just a case of, oh, yeah, it's an interesting exercise that you've done.
SPEAKER_03:So what inspires you? Like we're getting close to our hour and this probably should be our last question. But what inspires you, Terry? What makes you pick that new path and go, I'm going to do this? And where do you get the idea to, I'll just get up at four in the morning, I'm going to shoot this entire thing for a– I don't know, it's been going for six months, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it started at the end of May. I think it's one of those things that it just comes to you. If you sit back and do nothing, then you'll keep doing nothing. If you start doing something, then ideas grow on ideas. And so it's hard to really say where anything actually comes from because I'll start getting up at four o'clock in the morning.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:start shooting and think, oh, maybe I'll do an exhibition or a book. From that, I've got another plan that I'm just working on in the background that has yet to be unearthed. And I'd never have started doing that if I hadn't started on the first thing. You know, you can't jump steps. You've got to start doing things. Yeah. So I'd say if somebody's wanting to go and do something different, find something that is just maybe just a little bit interesting. and do it for some time. It's sort of, as I say, don't just pick the low-hanging fruit. Stay there, get involved, see how the lighting changes and you become part of the scene because you're always there and then you get different ideas and, oh, yeah, from photographing this, I could do that or that or that and it may not be photography. Yeah. it may lead you off to doing writing or filmmaking or anything like that. Just sort of be open to new ideas.
SPEAKER_03:Do you find that you've got– I mean, are you– it's a tricky idea, but do you feel like you have to complete things– Are you, like, if this goes nowhere, are you happy just to park it and follow the next thing? I've got more
SPEAKER_02:things that I haven't finished than I have finished. Okay. And that doesn't
SPEAKER_03:bother you? No. That's good. That's
SPEAKER_02:a great way to be. I think it's all just a step. Right. It would be nice to complete things because sometimes you think, oh, I won't start that because I never get around to finishing it. Right. sometimes I'll start planning things and the fun seems to be in the planning, not in the execution. Yeah. And so they never get executed. Yeah. So it just depends on what you're getting out of it and what's exciting you.
SPEAKER_03:That's really cool. It's so great to talk to you. Thank you very much for this hour. And I find you quite inspiring because these little things you keep doing and they keep you excited and... I think you draw people in around you around that because you're enthusiastic about things and I wouldn't have thought to do some of the things that you've done but they've created some pretty cool stuff. Thank you. And I think your work is fabulous and I think there is– it just keeps getting better and better and better and changing and that's what we're on this planet for, isn't it? And it's the change.
SPEAKER_02:It's sort of– if you're doing what you did 10 years ago– then you really haven't gone anywhere. You've just sort of marked time. And yet from a high perspective, you have. You're still doing your racing photography. You're still doing… I've been a non-horse person and been on the racetrack for 25, 30 years. So I sort of effectively haven't gone anywhere there. But photographically, outside of that, it's led me all sorts of places.
SPEAKER_03:That's fabulous.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks again, Terry. Thank you very much, and thank
SPEAKER_03:you for this lovely whiskey. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. We're still laughing. Not at the interview, because the interview was great. We're just laughing about Kate's understanding of Vienna. And... She said, they have balls. And I went, what? She said, you know, balls. And she flicked her hands up in the air. And she meant like the waltzing and the dancing and the beautiful
SPEAKER_01:thing. They do. And it's something I've always wanted to go to. I want to be one of those
SPEAKER_03:whatever they are. It came up because we're talking about Hilary and Steph having gone there for some horse riding. Some horse stuff because Steph is an equestrian.
SPEAKER_01:She is. And doing extremely well. That's fancy horses for those who
SPEAKER_03:don't know. Horses that can dance and do fancy prancing and she's an incredibly talented young Steph. As Terry said, he's known for being Steph's dad. That's right. And Hilary's husband.
SPEAKER_01:That was great.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I wish you guys had talked more about the races because– Who wants to hear
SPEAKER_03:about the races?
SPEAKER_01:Well– I mean, it's a complicated thing because, like, I have been married– I've been with you for 2,700 years. 2,700? Oh, I
SPEAKER_03:don't know.
SPEAKER_01:It feels like forever. Anyway. 25. And I hate the whole horse race. Like, from a cruelty perspective, so all the vegans and all the animal rights people who are listening here are going, fuck the races. I'm with you. I feel you. I get you. Because– I hate it. And when we watched the– like one of the 500 times that a horse has been shot two seconds after the bloody Melbourne Cup has happened, every time I'm like, why are we still doing this? This is an abomination. However, now that I've clarified my position on this, the stories of you shooting the photo finish at the races–
SPEAKER_03:Yes, this is not shooting horses with a
SPEAKER_01:gun. No, no, no, no. Taking a photograph– of the horse who gets over the line and their little schnoz getting over the line and being... Well,
SPEAKER_03:those photofins are slightly different to what Terry's doing, though.
SPEAKER_01:I know, but that is still the races and it's part of that whole thing. And you have so many hilarious stories. Now, Paul can eat a full roast dinner in under four and a half minutes because they had like four and a half minutes between races. And so Paul's capacity to shove a full roast dinner in his face in that length of time. And, you know, you and WG... started with the racing photography
SPEAKER_03:it was a big part of what we did we were general photographers but horse racing was the main focus on sport but then it became motorsport and then it became
SPEAKER_01:and it was your grandfather and your father and you and you all three of you went and did that and didn't they at some point call you the father the son and the holy ghost
SPEAKER_03:no that was never me no I was never in that trio but there was there was yeah anyway in the racing there's a whole lot of strange stories and lore and people used to knock around together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and the best names.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. And there's a certain level of that dodginess that comes from an industry based in gambling. Yeah, totally. I mean, that was something that our business was, you know, we were just always on the edge of it. We were never deep into it. My grandfather was.
SPEAKER_01:His grandfather was deep into it. Deep into it. Fucking everything.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, he owned horses and he really loved it and really thought a lot of it. And Dad and I, you know, we did it. And it was a job and we kind of had enough. Dad liked it more than I did.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, your grandfather was like a very controversial creature. And to me, I think the thing with WG, he was like, like, you know, and I'm sorry, I'm going to say this. I hope you take it in the right way. But there are some, and I encourage people to look them up. There are some videos of Donald Trump where he is– funny he's funny and he's charming and he's like he's he's got that thing that people are like he's a he's a funny guy he's a bit outrageous he's a bit on the edge and he's a bit like brings you in and that sort of thing and he's and trump is very good at that and And that I think is actually what his skill is. I don't
SPEAKER_03:think you're comparing him.
SPEAKER_01:I am because I think
SPEAKER_03:– It's more of a Sir Les Patterson, my grandfather.
SPEAKER_01:But your grandfather had a charm to him as well. He had an ability to kind of regale a room full of people. Yeah, I suppose. I probably just haven't seen enough of that. What was that thing that he said that we saw on the thing? Yeah, we
SPEAKER_03:can't repeat that. Oh, come on.
SPEAKER_01:She was so boring. She could pour an arsehole into her.
SPEAKER_03:Rocking horse. Sorry, we're laughing at our own joke. That was a Sir Les Patterson
SPEAKER_01:quote. That was a fucking great joke.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. So... So where were we going with that?
SPEAKER_01:I don't
SPEAKER_03:know. We're talking about the
SPEAKER_01:races. I just wanted you guys to– I wanted you to gossip about the races. I know, I know. Remember when Ken Pickles– the fucking names of these people. You know, like Trixie Ann Rollinson or something. They're always really weird names. It is.
SPEAKER_03:It's a really interesting industry and it's– It's difficult. It's got problems like any industry.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but we're not talking about the industry now also. We're talking about the industry sort of 30 years ago.
SPEAKER_03:Totally, totally, yeah. And it's a totally different industry. And it's the main source of income for Hila and Terry and it's a business. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:but it is also a human– a people business. Yeah,
SPEAKER_03:as Terry said, he loves going to the races to see how many people can say hello to
SPEAKER_01:you. See, I like all the stuff about actually also the horses. Like you used to– Hold a radio to get the horse's ears?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, we used to– yeah. So there's a separate job where you would do basically portraits of horses to help sell them at an auction, right? So it would be like– Tinder for horses, I suppose. Because they were used for breeding. They were used for breeding, basically. And so what you would do is you'd get the horse and you'd line them up. Terry described getting the legs right. There's a real trick art in the positioning of the feet. But then at the very last minute, you would play on a tape recorder and the horse would go, hello, ladies. If it was a boy horse. And it would look just right and interested and then you'd take the photo. And my job as a young person, as a 12-year-old out there was holding the tape recorder and pressing the play button at the
SPEAKER_00:right time. There it
SPEAKER_03:is. Anyway, it really was lovely. Maybe, I don't know, maybe that conversation should be happening with Terry and Hilary one day where that sort of stuff is looked into. But the thing I liked about the way Terry approached that is that's his business and he needs to know the shot's going to work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was really actually, that's right, in the beginning when he was talking about... shooting weddings and you've got to have your list and you've got to get everything on that fucking list otherwise because you can't shoot it again and that sort of stuff. And also knowing what his hourly rate was and is he charging enough. I mean, that is just like Christ almighty. I reckon three times a week somebody contacts us and says, what is the retail price of your product? And what they're asking is, what do I charge? And I find it amazing that I am still having these conversations with photographers where I say, what's your business model? Like are you charging nothing up front? Then you need to charge more on the back end. If you're charging heaps at the front, then you can charge less at the back. What's your hourly rate? What are you getting paid an hour? What do you mean when am I getting paid an hour? I don't know. Whatever I make. Well, hang on. How long does it take for you to do the job? How many hours does it take for you to edit? Because if you're fucking sitting there watching bloody Netflix for 37 hours for every single wedding, you need to take your$1,200 you charged for that wedding and divide it over your 37 hours and take away all your... Like, come on, people.
SPEAKER_03:And people are not doing it. It's one of these things. I don't know when and why this happened, but there's a large... A large period of time where that was the dirty talk that no one wanted to talk about. It
SPEAKER_01:still is. I mean, you know, the number of times we get people will go onto our Facebook group and we've got, I don't know, what, 3,000 people or something in there and someone will go, oh, hey, everybody, I'm about to sell a blah product, whichever one it is. What do you guys retail that for? Crickets. Nobody answers.
SPEAKER_03:And no one wants to also tell each other what they're charging.
SPEAKER_01:They don't want to tell each other what they're charging, but also it is so incredibly variable. Like if you're a wedding photographer, what you charge for a framed print because you charge so much more up front is going to be completely different than if you're a family photographer, you charge$150 to fuck around with some kid with gastro for six and a half hours.
SPEAKER_03:Gastro kid.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's just one of my rants about fucking gastro kids because that's what ends up happening. You know, so many family photographers shoot for hours and hours and hours. But what I
SPEAKER_03:liked about Terry is that separation and the understanding of what doing his art is and what his business is and where they sit in their little camps. There were so many great things he talked about and it's, you know, quite inspiring. And then the little tricks he used to, you know, the micro adventures, you know, just follow a train to the end of the line and get off and how he takes a bus down to town.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I found that really interesting and interesting And I could see why that would be his reasoning around why Adelaide is good for him because he already knows it and therefore it's about composition and activity that actually is the difference. Because I've always had this... You know the photographers. I don't need to name them. Where they go up to Northern Territory, stand in front of amazing scene number 347, set up a panoramic camera, hit the go button and hit print. And it's like great. So you went to the most beautiful place on earth and you sat, waited for the sun to go down and then you took some photos and now you're making heaps of money. Great. There's a fucking shitload of talent in there. And that– And that is very easy to happen in photography where you can just go somewhere that's already set up. The scene's there. You see it all the time at weddings. There's the poor photographer getting a beautiful group shot. It looks like, you know, Vanity Fair walked in and there's the bloody group shot. It's fantastic. And all these fuckheads behind them are getting their bloody phones out clicking behind their shoulder. Well, they set the bloody shot up. And then these mums and dads have got it all on their phone. And it's the same thing. You know, the environment set the shot up and we just walk in and shoot it. Where's the talent? Where's the interest? Yeah, so he's
SPEAKER_03:challenging himself in that way. Exactly. And it is a challenge. But also in seeing it the same place in a different way. I thought that was really clever. But he also loves to travel and get stuff in countries that he– but I think he's well practised. You know, he understands that it takes a year or two to try something and bed the idea in and
SPEAKER_01:– He's ridiculously patient. I mean, he is stonkingly patient. I am the most impatient person on earth, bar a couple of people that I
SPEAKER_03:know. Yeah, it's fabulous. Anyhow.
SPEAKER_01:Anyhow, look at you.
SPEAKER_03:Shall we do
SPEAKER_01:a moment of colour? Are you going to do a moment of colour? Are you going to do one that I actually want to talk about? No, you don't want to talk about this. Are you just going to do
SPEAKER_03:this bullshit? Pantone has released
SPEAKER_01:its colour of the year. Pantone, who has lost literally their entire relevancy to the entire universe and can go suck it. Why
SPEAKER_03:have they lost their relevance to the universe?
SPEAKER_01:So Pantone used to be a– and they still are. They're an ink company. They're an ink company. But– The whole point of Pantone was inconsistency. So if you came to me in Adelaide and you said, my corporate colour is 185.
SPEAKER_03:Pantone 185.
SPEAKER_01:Pantone 185. I would crack open a tin of Pantone 185, pour it into the press. So no one
SPEAKER_03:mixes Pantone 185? You buy a tin of
SPEAKER_01:Pantone? No, no, no. You buy a tin of 185 and you pour it in and you go, there's your 185. And then if you were in… Dusseldorf. I was going to say Budapest. Sure. And you go 185, baby. You crack open a tin and it's exactly the fucking same. And the point of that is that you then have a consistency of colour across the entire world. So it's pretty colour
SPEAKER_03:management, colour management, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And then what they did was a marketing dude went in there and it's always a fucking dude, sorry. Hang on, it might
SPEAKER_03:not be. Sure. There's a lot of girls doing the
SPEAKER_01:marketing stuff now. A girl managed to kill all the marketing douchebags on her way up to doing this one thing. at Pantone. I'm sure it happened. Anyway, and decided to make it a marketing juggernaut of products that have nothing whatsoever to do with Pantone.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, like mugs.
SPEAKER_01:Like fucking mugs and the colour of the year. What does this even mean? This is meaningless horseshit.
SPEAKER_03:Ultimate grey and illuminating. So illuminating is yellow and Like a sun-type yellow, post-it note yellow,
SPEAKER_01:and grey is... And what are we all going to do with this? Do you know what this is? This is an excuse for all the stylists...
SPEAKER_03:Hang on. Let me read out the quote. These two independent colours come together to create an aspirational colour pairing, co-joining deeper feelings of thoughtfulness with optimistic promises. Sunshine-filled day.
SPEAKER_01:Fuck
SPEAKER_03:me. There you go.
SPEAKER_01:Listen, this is, again, marketing. All that this is, same with Dulux colour of the year. All it is, is everybody goes, oh my God, did you know Dulux colour of the year? Did Dulux have
SPEAKER_03:a colour of the year? Yeah, Dulux have a whole... I thought this had a big dog, an English sheep dog.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, no. Dulux have a whole bloody... Stick that in your computer and... Let's not do that
SPEAKER_03:now.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Well, I'm just saying. I believe you. Because now. Can we have a colour of the year? Shut up. Now, all of these, all of these. I want a colour of the year. All of these bloody companies who need content, right? So all these magazines and all these online fucking journals and all these bloody bloggers and all this crap. Vloggers? They're going to go, oh my God, guys, do you know the colour of the year is this? And they're going to go, look, I've got the colour of the year pendant t-shirt. And they're going to do their fucking lay flats with their fucking. and shoes and they're going to paint a wall that colour and go, this is how you use the Pantone colour or the Dulux colour. This is how you implement the current trends. And then we all go out and we blow a whole lot of money on fucking paint which is a fucking environmental disaster and we just buy some more of that shit and we slap it on the walls and we pretend we're relevant because we followed the marketing bullshit. Right? Eat the rich. Hang on. ACAB. End of story.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's leave these nice people.
SPEAKER_01:I've been listening to a lot of left-wing radio.
SPEAKER_03:Well, there's no such thing as left-wing radio. It's podcasts.
SPEAKER_01:Same diff.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Anyhow, listeners.
SPEAKER_01:That was a very ranty rant.
SPEAKER_03:We're sorry we took us so long. We've just been a bit snowed under. And we've got interviews in the can.
SPEAKER_01:It's been a lot. Yes, Paul has interviews in the can because the man can't stop talking. So it's been a lot. You'll get some more. Yes. In a minute, we're going to be like drunk with relaxation because we're going to have– you're going to be bored because there'll be no one to talk to. I'm going to be relieved by the silence. Well, I'll be talking
SPEAKER_03:to you, the listeners,
SPEAKER_01:because we'll record another episode. Oh, I thought you were going to say you were going to be talking to me.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. Oh, yeah, I'll be
SPEAKER_01:talking to you as well. And the dog and the kids. I'm going to have to entertain you. Oh, God. Hey, I don't know if we're
SPEAKER_03:going to release another episode before Christmas. Really? We're
SPEAKER_01:giving up just like that. No. Fuck it. We're going to cut it short. Some horrible person said to me yesterday, oh, we'll have to make your appointment for after Christmas because Christmas is in a week. And I was like, you shut the fuck up. Oh, come on. How dare you say that to me?
SPEAKER_03:Happy Christmas, everybody.
SPEAKER_01:Happy Christmas, if it's happy. And do you know what? Let me just say this. Yes. You're going to ruin Christmas right now. Shut up. There is no shortage of people that enjoy Christmas and that are going to have a happy Christmas, that are going to be surrounded by their loved ones that they apparently enjoy being around. If you are not one of those people like me, you can text me and go, I'm having a shit Christmas and my family makes me want to kill them and I will go, I feel you, baby, because I do.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that was a nice note to end on. It's true.
SPEAKER_01:It's true. I
SPEAKER_03:hope you have a nice rest. It's true. How about this? I hope you all have a nice rest.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Good little break. But yes. No,
SPEAKER_03:imagine if you're working in food and catering.
SPEAKER_01:You know what? Here's what we should say. Imagine if you're an elf. If you are in a retail space of any kind between now and I would say like the 8th or 9th of January. Yeah. If you are in a retail space and you are dealing with any human being who is serving you, if you do not treat them like a fucking god, then you are a monster. Yes,
SPEAKER_03:be nice.
SPEAKER_01:Because these people have had the worst year. You think you've had a shitty year because you've sat in your fucking house all day? Well, these people have had to serve a whole bunch of lunatics who are trying to buy beans that they don't know what to do with because they've never used a dry bean in their life, but they're panicked. So... All the retail workers in Australia all need to have a big fat cuddle and you need to give them big smiles. Oh no, the roaner. You can't cuddle
SPEAKER_03:because of the roaner.
SPEAKER_01:Big smiles from a distance. And a
SPEAKER_03:wave.
SPEAKER_01:And a wave and offer to pack your own bags and say, hey, you guys are doing a great job and thank you so much for doing it because that's what they fucking deserve.
SPEAKER_03:Doff your mask. Doff your mask? How do you
SPEAKER_01:doff a
SPEAKER_03:mask? I
SPEAKER_01:don't know. Salute them?
SPEAKER_03:Lisa Lucy.
SPEAKER_01:Just give them a big smile through your mask. Thumbs up. And go, you guys are amazing. Thank you so much. That's all you have to do. And just don't be a douchebag. And you know how to do that. Don't ask for the thing that you don't need. Don't ask stupid questions. You know where to go. Just go and find it yourself. You don't have to ask them. You know, like big grown-ups.
SPEAKER_03:All right, then. Love to everybody.
SPEAKER_01:God, I was ranty. It was perfect. It was so much rant.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And if you have a shit Christmas, it's okay. I'm having one too, but it's fine.
SPEAKER_03:Bye!