Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 33 - Martine Perret
In a Skype call with Martine Perret, the conversation follows Matrine’s career and then swings from humanitarianism to photojournalism to fine art and back. Martine and her camera have worked for the United Nations for over 10 years after working for a major Australian newspaper, she is now using her art to document indigenous culture and languages. With such a strong diversity of work and a strong desire to tell others’ stories, there is much discussed.
Martine Perret’s website:
https://martineperret.photoshelter.com/index
Martine’s Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/martineperret/
Martine’s archive of available images
https://martineperret.photoshelter.com/archive
Adelaide Fringe Festival:
https://adelaidefringe.com.au
Chris Herzfeld and Erin Fowler Dance
https://www.themilladelaide.com/events/2020/10/27/exhibition-chrisherzfeld
https://www.erinfowlerprojects.com/blank
https://camlight.com.au/street-dance
Adelaide Festival:
https://www.adelaidefestival.com.au
Giles Bettison Glass Artist
https://www.adriansassoon.com/artists/giles-bettison/
Good evening, Kate Atkins. Good evening, listeners. Good evening, world. This is the Atkins Labcast, which you have tuned into.
SPEAKER_04:Bloody hell, they'll tune out real quick if you keep that up.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I see. Is that a little bit too... A little bit too...
SPEAKER_04:Adjusting my microphone.
SPEAKER_03:Well, someone's got to adjust a microphone because you prefer not to actually talk into it.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, fuck, really? We don't have any complaints. I mean, no one's listening, so who cares?
SPEAKER_03:There are people listening. I've already had someone. Penny's listening. Who? Penny. Penny who?
SPEAKER_04:My friend. Have you got a friend called Penny? Yeah, she has exquisite taste in earrings, which I happen to share.
SPEAKER_03:You know, this is news to me.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you know, you live and learn, don't you, buddy?
SPEAKER_03:Is Penny short for Penelope?
SPEAKER_04:I don't know. We're not that close yet.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I see.
SPEAKER_04:For me to ask a question like that. That's a very intrusive question.
SPEAKER_03:No, that's fine. She has very nice earrings. That's very good.
SPEAKER_04:Exceptional earrings.
SPEAKER_03:That's very good. So, it is now, we're into March. The madness of March has hit the old Adelaide with our festivals and all of
SPEAKER_04:that. Yes, it makes you go, wow. This is why we live in Adelaide. Every year we do this. We go, this is why we're here. This makes all the rest of the boringness worthwhile.
SPEAKER_03:And then you look at all the crowds. Except
SPEAKER_04:this year when it's all just Australian acts and there's nothing overseas.
SPEAKER_03:And everyone's shoulder to shoulder in these venues.
SPEAKER_04:I'm just waiting for a COVID lockdown any minute now.
SPEAKER_03:Correct.
SPEAKER_04:But we have to be grateful for what we have.
SPEAKER_03:We do have to be grateful for what we have. And what we have is a pumping Adelaide festival and Adelaide Fringe Festival, which is extremely cool. And lots happening. We've got a couple of shows we've been involved in because the Fringe isn't just about performance art or comedy and that. There's about stills. So there's a few shows on which is pretty exciting that we're a part
SPEAKER_04:of. Very exciting. Yes. I have to put my extroverted hat on. Oh,
SPEAKER_03:yeah, because we're going to see a show called Egg. on Sunday night, which we have been working with the photographer and the dancer, dancer, dancer?
SPEAKER_04:Dancer.
SPEAKER_03:Erin and Chris, to produce some prints for, not for this show, for another one of her shows, but there were some photographs taken inside the building of her reviewing our work and trying to look fancy and professional with the wonderful Miriam, who's been doing the printing for her.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And actually talking about People and staff and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, my God.
SPEAKER_03:We have had– It's
SPEAKER_04:like a party out there.
SPEAKER_03:It's a hiring party, isn't it? It makes me very nervous.
SPEAKER_04:The government should just give us a lot of money for being, like, nice.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think the payroll is looking like 25 people.
SPEAKER_04:No, don't talk about the payroll. But, yes, it is a lot of people. There's a lot of people out there. I went out there today and I was like, look at you all. Look at you all. There's so many. There's like six people in one of those rooms. It was crazy. I
SPEAKER_03:know. And they're all doing, you know, a great job. But there's so many learny-learn people. Like at least one, two, three, four, five of them are fresh, fresh faces.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I haven't been ruined yet. No, they haven't been ruined. Give us ten years. They'll look a little different. One of the things I want to talk about was client feedback.
SPEAKER_03:Client feedback. Do tell, Kate. I've got a tipped head.
SPEAKER_04:Well, so I'm actually going to write a Facebook post about this, so it'll be interesting because we'll actually get an idea of who's listening. Because... So we had a client, I'm not going to mention the client's name, but she had an issue with a product and... Is
SPEAKER_03:this a lesson in how to respond to complaints?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Do you want to just tell them the lesson and I just don't tell the story and then they don't learn anything
SPEAKER_03:themselves? Tell the
SPEAKER_04:story. Tell the story. Really? So she was like, look, I love you guys. I think you're amazing, but... I'm not happy and this thing has gone wrong and a bunch of other things have gone wrong and I'm not a complainer and normally when this sort of stuff happens I have just like I just don't go back to the place and but I love you guys and I'm invested in you guys and I've been using you since 2015 but the last couple years it's just been a lot of problems and And, you know, there were some problems she could be specific about and there were some that she couldn't be like this exact date, this time, blah, blah. But there was feedback that was relating to a specific product which had some inconsistencies and I was like, I think that's an issue with one of our machines. And I actually went down the back and I said, I think this is an issue and I want you to do these things. And the girls had already picked up that there was an issue and was already doing things that I wanted them to do. But, hey, Frank, sorry, listeners, if you heard Frank just then, he's getting stroppy.
SPEAKER_03:I don't think they can hear you. The microphones are pretty
SPEAKER_04:on. Anyway, so, and what it was, was it was a lesson in a bit of humility, Paul?
SPEAKER_01:Humility. Humility.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, you fuckwit. So because it's not– it's actually– so initially when the complaint was given to me, it was like, oh, she's not happy. We're not entirely sure why other than, you know, like the actual issue we were clear about and we needed to resolve. But there was sort of some generalized unhappiness. And I was having a pretty rough week. It's been a rough– it's been a brutal month this month. Well, we've
SPEAKER_03:been busy and there's been a lot of new people and there's a lot of-
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but I've had, for example, I've had braces put on my teeth.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my God.
SPEAKER_04:The most horrible experience. I've then had a daughter go through a health crisis, which was-
SPEAKER_03:Tonsillitis and that went to, not tonsillitis, tonsillectomy. It turned into let's go back into hospital because it started bleeding three days after. And let's
SPEAKER_04:have emergency for five hours of vomiting up blood followed by emergency surgery because they couldn't stop the bleeding and it was terrifying and horrible and we're all traumatised. But other than that, I was pretty exhausted when I got this sort of like this is an unhappy client and we are trying to figure out why. And I think it's fair to say that I was a little bit, Defensive. I don't think I was like, oh, thank you, but I was definitely defensive. And she was very generous with me because she kind of stuck with me through my defensiveness and was like, you need to understand that I love you guys, but I don't know what to do because this is not working. That's
SPEAKER_03:kind of the feedback you really want. Someone who actually is invested in the relationship.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And then through– like we talked for two hours. Like it was a big thing. And it was interesting because then there was a whole lot of stuff around printing that she wasn't aware of that I could like give her more information about and there's definitely stuff around the product she's been buying and whether she'd be better at a different product and so on and so forth. But the thing– I think the thing is– so I think this is the thing. I know there are photographers out there who have used us and had a problem and they've just gone. And I know that there are photographers who have had a bride who they really loved, really liked, and then the bride was just like not super pumped with the shots. But she didn't really say anything. She just dealt with the shots and didn't recommend and didn't go back for any other images. And I know that... That is really hard for a photographer and it's really hard for us. And photographers know, like you guys know when I say crazy bride versus you didn't do your best or there was an issue, like you got behind in your editing and you were way late and you should have done it and you've had personal stuff and you didn't get it organized, that you know the difference between a bride who's just like being– because there are loopy people out there, right? And they have loopy complaints for whatever their loopy reasons are and whatever loopy things are happening in their life. I'm not talking about that. We get that every now and then. We get someone who's just, you know, like, this guy is blue in my photograph and I wanted it to be orange and you should have known that and done it before I knew about it. Like we had a client who was like complaining about trees and we should have known that she didn't like trees, like whatever. So I'm not talking about those loopy people. I'm talking about... The clients that you know are good people and that you had a connection. They loved you and you loved them. It was all good but you let the side down for whatever reason. You thought you got away with it. You thought it would be okay or you just didn't even know that she was really angry or that she didn't like your edit or that you cropped her mum out of a photo and she will never forgive you or whatever it is. And The pain of not having that person come back or you hear about it sideways through another photographer or like a family, like, you know, a family who you see every year and then suddenly they just disappear, you know, that sort of stuff. It's excruciating because you feel like you can't fix it when it's done already, you know. And so– but there's also an element of it that is like– Do I want to now have this conversation? Do I want to now know all the things I've done wrong? And then I have to go and fix them. And my list is 350 things wrong long anyway, but now I have to go and fix all of this other new stuff. And so like after this recording that we're doing, I'm doing a whole lot of stuff, including enrolling in university for a contemporary art degree. Holy shit. We won't talk about that right now. But I'm going to write a Facebook post on our group about this because– I know that there are people who have left us and didn't tell us and I've heard through other people and whatever. And I know there's a heap that haven't told anyone that that's why they've done it or why they've done it or anything. And I'm not saying I want them all back. I mean, yes, I want global domination. I want every single photographer on the planet to use us. But not all at once. But I want– I think I want to open the door for anyone who wants to come back and talk to us again. Because I think sometimes there is an element of like, I haven't been there for so long, they're going to know and they're going to be pissed off because I don't want that either. So I don't know. I'm putting myself– I've decided to put myself on the line and go, I know that we've made mistakes or we've let the side down because we do feel like it's a team effort. Photographers and us. And so–
SPEAKER_03:Because we are all working in service of that end person who's buying that piece of magic. I
SPEAKER_04:also know that the last 12 months has been tricky because we've grown really quickly and that means that a lot of big cracks open up really quickly when you grow fast. And, like, I've seen that with–
SPEAKER_03:Is that a pottery metaphor?
SPEAKER_04:No. I've seen that with photographers. Like, photographers who work for us and– you know, their business grows rapidly and suddenly they've got so much editing that everything just starts to crumble around their earlobes because they just don't know how the hell to get it all done and yet they want to keep all these people happy. So I think that there's definitely like– and that's the thing, it's that difference between the reasons why it happened and you know the reasons why it happened versus the person's feelings are feeling– like they can't trust us or like they've been neglected or they've been dismissed or they felt like they couldn't talk to us. And so I don't know quite how I'm going to word it all. I'm sort of just blabbering now.
SPEAKER_03:So we want listeners to keep an eye open for that. No, I'm not asking
SPEAKER_04:for listeners to keep an eye. I'm just talking about this from– The perspective of all people who run businesses who deal with other humans. And that this is a thing that photographers can think about in their own businesses. How do they deal with a client who complains? And how do you humanise that moment beyond the defensiveness? Because I think that's really what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_03:But isn't that the... So much of this has come out, and I don't mean to... echo back to what's happened in America with their elections but this partisanship that means the first thing you do is protect your side because you think everything's a battle and your point is with this is like we have to work with our clients to produce something for their clients because they're all our clients those end people who buy it so we are on the same team of making this work and you're you know you're suggesting that Think of it that way and you're trying to come out in the spirit of collaboration because we know we've dropped the ball and we do drop the ball every now and then that happens and we want to fine-tune things and this is the best way
SPEAKER_04:to do it. Yeah, but I also think it's about that moment of empathy where you think about why is this person complaining?
SPEAKER_03:Correct.
SPEAKER_04:And…
SPEAKER_03:Listening.
SPEAKER_04:And listening to them and going, okay, from their perspective, their… From the perspective of a client that complains to us, often it's fear-related in that they're going, I'm dropshipping all these products. They're going direct to my client. If my client's not happy, I'm going to get blamed for it. So there's that aspect of it. And so it's about trying to have a conversation with them where– because there are times, especially as a boss lady, I don't get– I don't necessarily get told every time someone's like, oh my God, I love this. I'm so, this is so great. I don't necessarily get told those times, you know. But I get told when somebody is like throwing cats at the door because they're so bloody angry with us. Systemic. Right. And then sometimes as the person who's at that end, you're like, all I do is deal with unhappy people all day, right? And this was a moment where because this client was compassionate enough with me to kind of go, I need you to hear me. This is a thing. I love you, but you've fucked this up and you need to do better. And when people do that, when your customers do that, when your customers go, hey, I've been with you for five years, you've been shitting my family every year, but last time your brain wasn't on it and these are crap, do another one. Instead of going, well, fuck you, which is what you feel like doing, Actually hearing them and actually thinking about yourself and your own business and what are you doing and where were you on that day and are you overloaded and do you need to sub your editing out or whatever the fuck it is. Because that's what, you know, the end result of this is you take action to resolve it. It doesn't happen again. But I just, I guess that's the thing for me for this week that was really overwhelming Powerful because she was very generous in allowing me to be defensive initially and then walking me through it and allowing me to also try and resolve it. Because she could have gone, you know what, I'm telling you this, but I'm out. And she didn't. She went, I'm telling you this and I'm in. I'm here, but fucking do better. And so I'm going to do it. Like it's going to happen. But I just think it's a really– It's a thing that photographers will understand that conversation. This is not one of these like– because some things there is when you run a lab, there are things that photographers won't understand like HR. Having 25 people working for you, your average photographer doesn't understand the issues around that. But this is a thing that anybody who runs a business with other people can get, I think. You're looking all tense because I have ranted for too long and you're like, this is only supposed to be 15 minutes and now– What is it? Is that 17 minutes?
SPEAKER_03:Correct.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, my God. Really? You're looking tense over 17 minutes. No, I'm not. Fuck with.
SPEAKER_03:No, I'm not. But I would really love for us to get to the interview. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04:Because the interview is actually really cool.
SPEAKER_03:I know. And it's one of the coolest people. And she
SPEAKER_04:is like– I listened to that interview and I was like normally I can listen to an interview and I can go oh yeah I'm really interested in like this thing and that thing and I could imagine because you know I'm very self-centered and so I can sort of do and her description of what she does and the things she's done and where she's gone in these bloody war zones not even war zones just like one of them was like and then we trekked for eight hours and I was like No, fuck that. No, I'm not participating in that. And so…
SPEAKER_03:You're a bit princessy for that. I'm
SPEAKER_04:such a princess. Oh, my God. High maintenance doesn't even cover it. And so the things that she has done and the places she's been and she's just like this wild, fearless kind of…
SPEAKER_03:With the best accent. Yeah, with
SPEAKER_04:the best. If you do nothing else, just sit there and listen to the accent. Don't even listen to the words she says. But… Yeah, it's a really, really good interview. You did a beautiful job. And she's like intimidatingly impressive.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So let's let everyone have a listen and we'll catch up with you. Have you even said who it is? Martine Perrette.
SPEAKER_04:And?
SPEAKER_03:Give us a round up. Give us one sentence. She's a photographer. I think she's most interested in talking about people's cultures and helping bring cultures to the forefront. And history to some extent. But she's worked for the United Nations for over ten years as a photographer. She's got her own art practice. And she's been working with Indigenous people in Western Australia.
SPEAKER_04:And you know the thing I loved? The thing that made me just like go, yes. Was when she was like, you know... And I'm not going to put an accent on because that's so offensive. And mainly because my accent will be terrible. But she was like, you know... I don't do well unless I want to do the job. If I don't want to do the job, it's going to be boring and I don't want to be bored. I don't want to be unhappy, so I'm going to do only stuff that I want to do. And that means sometimes I live in a crappy house or whatever, you know, and I was just like, oh. It's so refreshing. Like it was really just like, yeah. So because I am, I am like, cause I relate to that. I'm like, like if I have to do terrible work all day, every day, watch out, you know, you don't want to live with me. I turn into a goddamn monster. And so the fact that she was like proudly like owning, no, no, I'm going to do what I want. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do what I want. And there are consequences to that, but I'm willing to take them. So fuck you all. I was like, I haven't worked out the consequences side of things. I will only do what I want, plus I want to buy the shoes. So, just saying.
SPEAKER_03:All right, well, enjoy, Martine, and we'll catch you after. Shall we go?
UNKNOWN:We shall.
SPEAKER_03:We shall, we shall. Good afternoon, everybody. I'm on the phone call now on the Skype with Martine Perrette, who is... in the wonderful Margaret River, even though her accent may be lie that she is from somewhere else, but she's a Margaret River original. You have made it your home, have you, Martine?
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Paul. Yes, I have, actually. David and I, my husband and I, we've been living here since 2013.
SPEAKER_03:You're in a farm, are you?
SPEAKER_00:We're not in a farm at all.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, no?
SPEAKER_00:No, we're not. We're just... sort of in town, on the edge of town and a nice, you know, lock and leave type place and just really nice actually. No, we love it. It's our little haven of peace.
SPEAKER_03:Well, something has come through in the reading and a little bit of research I've done about you is you obviously aren't from Margaret River. I can see there is a Parisian accent. You're from France originally. I'd love to know, what brought you to Australia because and how long how long have you been here?
SPEAKER_00:It's a long convoluted road so yes I was born in Paris and I migrated to Australia in 1997 and I went to Sydney first actually so absolutely no idea I would ever land to WA really.
UNKNOWN:I
SPEAKER_00:Because when I was younger, I did a couple of around the world trip and I remember on those tickets, Sydney was always one of the stopover and I immediately fell in love with Sydney and actually the little glimpse that I had of Australia. So I decided one day, I was in Italy, I was living in Italy and I thought, Oh, I'd love to go back to Australia. Let's see if that can happen. So I packed up my bags and landed in Sydney and ended up staying there, migrating. And I had met at the time my partner who was a cellist at the Opera House. So we did the immigration process, you know, the whole partnership, which at the time I think was much easier than what I hear today. And so that's how I started my life here.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, wow. 97, now, were you carrying a camera at that stage? When was photography a part of your life?
SPEAKER_00:Not at all, actually. It's quite funny. I think for many years I was really searching what I really wanted to do. It was a combination of humanitarian work. It was a combination of photography. It came later. It came probably a year after I settled in Sydney. And I think because I was with... Peter, at the time, and the classical music was very much part of our life, and the opera house was a backdrop of my life, really. I was surrounded by so much creatives. I mean, even though it was classical music, so it's very niche. I felt that somehow this kind of impulse of energy and creativity buzzing around me, and I really felt like, obviously to survive financially, I did lots of bits and pieces of work, but that was not really, that was more bread and butter. In fact, I was also teaching French at nighttime. But eventually, and because words have never been, how can I say, you know, the way I express myself the best, the words I always found challenging, you know, beautiful, however, but I knew that there was another way I wanted to express myself, and I did a couple of nighttime course in Sydney, I remember, and I really, I think, fell in love with photography, and I thought, wow, maybe I should actually try to look into it, and so I started doing, you know, a blend of working at night, and doing photography during the day, to sort of, and eventually I actually approached the, I know it sounds really weird, but I approached the Austrian Financial Review to see if I could do some sort of work experience.
SPEAKER_03:Because of course you ended up working there.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, actually, it was really odd because one of my friends was a journalist at the Manly Daily at the time, really gorgeous girl. And she said, hey, do you want to do a bit of work experience with us? And it was only a week. And for some bizarre reason, they needed so much paperwork. And I was, I don't know, I couldn't be bothered, actually. So I gave up on the idea. And I heard... And again, I'm not sure entirely how I heard about this French girl who had been working at the Financial Review. And I thought, well, maybe I should contact them and see, you know. And it was quite funny because I made the mission to call the editor, the photographic editor, but not leave any message until he really would pick up the phone. So I think it took about two weeks. I think one day he picked up the phone. And I said, oh, I'd love to show you my portfolio. And obviously my portfolio will was really pretty slim at the time. But I think he liked what he saw. Obviously, he must have thought, all right, well, we can't really offer you much at the moment, but maybe you can come and learn with the pros. So bit by bit, that's how I did, actually. I was going there for a good year, like I said, almost on a daily basis while I was actually teaching at night to survive financially because I was not paid. It was all completely learn on the job type thing. And then eventually... there was an opening. So I took the opening, and it was more at the desk. So it was like booking the photographers and everything. But inevitably, someone gets sick, someone cannot do the job, and you're there, and you say, hey, do you have your camera? Can you go on that job? So my very first job, I remember, and I was scared. It was when Virgin, that was in 2000, when... Yeah,
SPEAKER_03:when Michael,
SPEAKER_00:Richard... Yeah, Richard Benson, there was this big press conference announcing Virgin, and that's what I covered, actually. And it ended up being on the front page.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00:So I was like, oh, that's good. Well, obviously, it's not always like that, but I thought that was pretty funny. So anyway, I've got super fond memories, actually, because the photographers were really great, super creative, really talented, and I learned so much with them.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so the role at the Financial Review, you're desk arranging photographers and that sort of stuff. But when you started taking pictures, the Financial Review paper, of course, is not– a traditional photojournalist. It's a business-based paper, isn't it, really?
SPEAKER_00:No, I know, but we were always looking at a different angle. It was not literal thinking. It was much more lateral thinking. So it was always trying to bring... So I don't know, imagine the article was about a challenging situation, something, and maybe we'll use an image of a boxer or, you know, it was all of this lateral thinking. So it really allowed us to create some fantastic imagery, which we would apply in a lateral context. And I think that's why, you know, the business world actually did like the paper as well, not only because obviously of great journalism, but the photography was always, I thought, quite interesting, actually.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's of illustrative approach to things is really valuable. And I suppose it's even more so these days, but people just don't want to read the words. They want to feel like there's something, a picture that would draw them into it or something that will help explain it. That's a very interesting role. And how long did you stay as a photographer?
SPEAKER_00:So the role, I think it was roughly from 2008. to 2003. And what happened at the end of 2003, I remember Fairfax was starting, there was already so many talks about rejigging the whole freelance world and it started to be a bit, ooh, very dangerous territories where, because I had a really cushy sort of experience role there in a way because I had so many shifts every week so it was really great you know and then all of a sudden it started shrinking and shrinking and shrinking to the point that I was thinking okay I really have to start thinking about some of the things and if I can go back to the year earlier the year before I left the financial review in 2002 I went to East Timor to cover the independence at the time and so when I came back from that trip For some reason, and also meanwhile, the relationship that I had with a partner at the time had actually finished and ended up. And so I felt like all of a sudden I didn't have too many reasons to stay in Sydney. I was like, well, maybe I can broaden my horizon and just go somewhere else. And it's like a light bulb and said, oh, why not East Timor? Why not going there? Why not? I
SPEAKER_03:mean, I assume your travel... before Australia and your traveling the world had got you into a frame of mind that you're okay going to tricky places.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was just like, Yeah, I was always ready for adventures. And it was also, like you said, because these were the early years of my photojournalism career, I felt I really wanted to do something more challenging, more, you know, in the thick of things. So I packed up my two suitcases and landed on the doorstep of Dili. And... And I ended up staying for about a year, a year and a half as a freelance photographer. So I really survived on a combination of filing back a few jobs back to Australia, doing a few exhibitions, creating even postcards there and selling them to the to the UN and the NGOs. I mean, it was it was hilarious, actually. And every month having my passport stamped at the immigration, pretending I was a tourist. And it was always, you know, oh, my God, it was it was always an adventure and the guy at the end he looked at me and he says yeah right
SPEAKER_03:they'd worked it out
SPEAKER_00:yeah well they there was a non-spoken kind of agreement yeah okay here you are stamp your pass because it's actually really vulnerable position when you think about it you know i was really yeah it was i was putting myself in in so many vulnerable situation but at the same time i was kind of trusting it was going to be fine and this was also These were the years where I was obviously having friends with United Nations workers. So that's also how I kind of had a bit of a glimpse of this new world, which I didn't know, but I was somewhat attracted to.
SPEAKER_03:So did you feel that that work in Dili was a bit of a training for what then became your work with the United Nations?
SPEAKER_00:Probably, yeah, it started because I had a few gigs with some NGOs, you know, non-governmental organisations. And I was in the field already, so obviously... And it was extraordinary. The times were extraordinary. Because remember, Shanana had just been sworn in as a president. And because we were freelancers, one of my friends came from France. She is a journalist for a newspaper. And we somehow landed a gig to follow Shanana in the districts for a week. So here we were at the back of the car with his personal assistants. And we were traveling through the country with his convoy. I had never been in a convoy. And you know how they fly at 100 an hour in those convoy. especially very dodgy roads of Istimo at the time. And we turn up in a village, and Shanana was an incredible speaker. He would speak for nonstop about three hours in Tetun language. The villagers were completely entranced by speech, even us. I couldn't quite understand what he was saying, but there was this kind of huge energy. And we would do a village, drive to another, drive to another. So we would have done nonstop, maybe 10 hours of driving, stopping to village, talking to the villagers, he would. And then at the end, at night, we would sleep in some really remote place. village where there was no bed. I think we slept on some sort of wooden board and we were lining up with his personal assistant and my girlfriend and I. And I remember in the middle of the night, Shannon are knocking on our door. Does anybody has any light? And my girlfriend had a frontal torch. She looked at me and she says, I can't believe I've just given my light to the president. It was so hilarious, you know. So, do you know, Rin, like, these were the incredible days, basically, where anything and everything was possible, you know, and surreal situations as well. And it wasn't
SPEAKER_03:that long ago. It's, like, it's...
SPEAKER_00:2003, yeah. That was 17, 18 years ago.
SPEAKER_03:I know. It's not that long ago. And was it a... Were you in a place that you felt fear? I mean, obviously you understood that things were going to be okay for you. You've got this built into you. I think you... You know you're going to be safe. And I don't know how you do that, but that's your magic. And it's super impressive. Did you feel safe there at that time?
SPEAKER_00:Look, this was not 1999, you know. David, my husband, and so many others have covered that. And that's obviously a different story. 2003 was the new nation, the building of a new nation. So it was a different context. I mean, obviously, you know, you just have to be mindful of a few other things. But it was not, you know what I mean? It was not the same context of 1999, you know? It was more a combination of things, like living, obviously, a simple life where you don't always have water or electricity. Actually, the first week I arrived there, I caught the dengue fever, so that was exactly helpful.
SPEAKER_03:Talking about being safe, dengue fever.
SPEAKER_00:Things like that, but it was not... Anyway, it was just a matter of juggling your daily life there, but it was more... managing on a daily basis certain things. But no, I felt fine anyway. And like I said, I stayed there for about a year and a half before I got contacted by the UN because I had applied a year earlier, never heard of anything, of course, because it takes forever. But out of the blue, I was asked if I was available for a job in Burundi as a photographer. And I somewhat didn't believe it. I thought that was maybe a joke. And in fact, I had no idea even when I vaguely knew where Burundi was because of the history of that part of the world that we have with Europe. But I didn't know too much about Burundi really, let alone the political situation, nothing. But I said yes.
SPEAKER_03:Of course, just keep nodding.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, let's go. That's amazing. I mean, come on, the UN. So the UN has a couple of branches. So this was a peacekeeping mission, but I was part of what we call UNVs, the United Nations Volunteers. So you do get a stipend to help you survive each month, but that's what they call a volunteer position. And so the role was for a year, probably renewable, You know, the UN has 16 peacekeeping mission operations around the world, 16 or 17 more or less. And this was one of them. And the reason why it had been created was because they were having an election at the end of the year. So the UN was called to help with the facilitation of the elections, basically. And so... That was one of the role. And as a peacekeeping mission photographer, your role is obviously to photograph the mandate that was set by the Security Council. And so, you know, the elections was one thing, but there was also a program called the DDR program, the demobilization, disarmament, and integration of former combatants. So my role was very diverse, basically. And, but it was amazing. I mean, working for the UN was, even though I know not everything is perfect in the UN world, but it was incredible, you know. Remember what one of the secretary general years ago said, the UN was not created to take mankind to heaven, but to save humanity from hell. I like the quote, you know. It's a beautiful quote. And I thought, yeah, you know, it's true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I'm lucky because I'm just following along by looking at the gallery on your website with the Burundi images, which they're a stellar series. And if you look at the timeframe of your work as you've posted it, you can see that this development through to this photojournalistic style, it's a very strong, very human style. For you, it's the people first always. Is that the case?
UNKNOWN:Well...
SPEAKER_00:It was a mix of things, so I've obviously photographed the peacekeepers in action, and also the people on the ground, absolutely, because they're part of the story. We are invited, we are host of their country, and it's all, It's not all about the peacekeepers. It's about the impact we have on the ground with the people. So it's really important to have them included in my story. I remember years ago, I was kind of fighting with, not fighting literally, but there was somebody in one of the UN agencies, I won't name here, but all they wanted is to see the UN logos, the UN cap. And I said, no, the story is not about that. It's about the impact that we have had on the ground nobody cares about those things but they will love to see themselves and how we impacted on the country and that was the most amazing exhibition we've done actually so one of the most anyway that I thought we had done not in the UN but I'm talking us in our team and so that's why it's important but obviously the peacekeepers as well because obviously as a peacekeeping mission photographer my role was to tell the story of the peacekeepers and there are so many people who are doing incredible jobs And I wanted them to be in the limelight and show, you know, like once I remember I followed some military liaison observers and they say, come with us and we'll show you what we do. And I said, sure. And I didn't ask too much. I said, oh, we're going to such village. Yeah, I forgot a minor detail. Well, I knew we were going to walk, but I didn't realize we had to walk for eight hours through an ancient river bed and blah, blah, blah. And on top of that, I had committed to take a video. And, you know, I was constantly running ahead of them to video themselves walking. So you did twice the
SPEAKER_03:distance, back and forth.
SPEAKER_00:Twice the distance, absolutely. It was crazy. But, you know, so those guys were super dedicated. yeah pack up go we slept under some sort of whatever shelter there and then off we went back the next day but you know there was there were so many people doing hardcore job like it was it was working either sometimes for a couple of days or it was you know it was non-stop you know long hours as well sometimes every day and so They are the unsung heroes, you'd say, sometimes. But they were, I wanted them to be part of my story as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I can see that. So with a team of, there was a team of photographers, so there was a couple of you or two or three with this particular piece, just you?
SPEAKER_00:Usually you have one international photographer and then sometimes there is a local photographer. So in my last role in Istimo, for example, the role of the mission was what they called at the time capacity building so you were there to support one local Timorese photographer and I'm really proud of what we've done because we managed to send him we went together to one of the workshop in Siem Reap in Cambodia and then we sent him once also I remember in Thailand and he's an incredible photographer but I think all he needed was a bit of support and a bit of you know mentoring that was the role when I was in Burundi, not as such. I was the international photographer. There was a local videographer and there was a team of public information officers. So I was really the only one, yeah, on the ground to cover whatever was required.
SPEAKER_03:And did they give you training as far as the situations you're going into? Because there'd be some very experienced soldiers in the peacekeeping group who would know their things. So do they help you out with what's going to happen and how are you going to...
SPEAKER_00:I think the first time, I can't remember if it was probably one of the first time I've been on the ground. Normally, you're supposed to go via Brindisi. We have a base, a UN base in Italy. But I think, I'm trying to remember, I didn't go there. So I think I went straight to Burundi. You obviously have a bit of a training with security officers, for sure. You also have a preparation before you get on the ground to do a security training online as well, and all sorts of training. In fact, the trainings over the years have become much more encompassing, you know, even on sexual harassment as well as security, cyber security, all sorts of things. It's funny, it didn't exist, obviously, 17 years ago, but they're much more, much more focused now, those training. But at the time, I had some training. I did... I realized at some point that I wanted to deepen the training. So I was offered the opportunity to fly to Amman in Jordan to do a five-day course. This course was actually dedicated to the staff that was usually going to work in Iraq. And whilst I was not going to go to Iraq, I was trained into, you know, those volatile situations where you have roadside bombs and kidnapping and all of those things. So it's pretty intense, actually. But it was really interesting, I thought, because... I'm not saying it's going to save you necessarily, but possibly help you to maybe mentally be prepared if that makes sense you know it's kind of at least it's better to have preparation to know how to speak on the radio because we obviously use you know those radios to communicate so how to communicate through the radio how to act in particular situations and if you've never really been trained I think you would you know it would be much more confronting at least if you have a training you have a sense that okay what do I do now so I decide to do that training it was a couple of years after that was already when I was I had been in Congo by that time because we had gone through completely we had gone through some difficult situations sometimes where we got shot at or we you know there were a few situations that were pretty scary and so I thought maybe it's a good idea for me to have that special training
SPEAKER_03:I'm quite– actually, it isn't surprising that they might put you in those situations without a bit of training. But, of course, they've clearly understood that now and they've changed the process. You said the training is more encompassing that they offer now. We
SPEAKER_00:did have some training, but I have to say it is true that in the early days we could have done with more intense training because I think like whilst I– Yeah, it's hard to explain. I think a lot of people are staying in the office, so probably they're not really going to the field. But with photographers and others, possibly it would pay to really have a more intense training on certain situations. But I think now things have changed dramatically. and I know that when I was in South Sudan, I did another such training for a couple of days. So over the course of all of the years that I worked in the UN, I did have a series of different training at different times, you know, and also because I wanted, because of the job that I was doing, obviously, you know, because you
SPEAKER_03:weren't. Makes complete sense. I mean, I'd hate to, I'd want to know as much as possible anyway, certainly as much as the next person next to you about what's happening. So you've been in and out of a lot of, african countries uh doing a lot of work and uh for the united nations at what stage did you feel that this travel and this work in the united nations you needed a bit more of a home base because that's what i understand is where you've sort of searched out a place at margaret river that's probably one of the quieter places in australia or in the world in fact
SPEAKER_00:when was that I met my now husband, David, in 2013. We met during the parliamentary elections in East Timor. And that was, yeah, you could say it's love at first sight, really. And the rest is history. So we quickly, yeah, went out together, even though I was in East Timor and he was in Sydney. And I was like, it was a bit like being a fly-in, fly-out type situation, except I think the fly-in, fly-out, it's pretty cool because we, my situation was two to three months in East Timor and I would see him for two weeks. So it's much longer separation, I think, in time, you know. So, but eventually, so he was living in Perth and then by that time I had moved I moved to South Sudan and I was coming back whenever I could, obviously. But I promised that at some point I would quit the UN. Look, I think had I not met David, maybe I would have probably stayed longer. I'm pretty sure of that. But I met him and I think... you know they have an expression in the UN world they say you become a mission junkie and it's so true you jump from one mission to the next and sometimes without a proper break and then some people mentally they collapse because it's too much because they think they can but they just realize it's an accumulation of being burnt out 10 times and so but they do it because it becomes a family because you've got a good salary because you've got it's a different world altogether it's very busy, you travel, you're in a conflict situation and it's lots of adrenaline rush I can't really explain and you're involved in something, maybe you think that you're trying to make a difference in your, do you know what I mean? You
SPEAKER_03:are making a difference I mean you're telling an important story
SPEAKER_00:Trying anyway, whatever way and so I guess that's also an adrenaline rush in so many ways, you know what I mean? Anything else after that seems a little bit not futile but You know, like if somebody comes up with some silly idea Yeah, sometimes I do the mistake to read some community notice board where I live and I can't believe the kind of level of insignificance it can have. And I'm like, oh my God, you know. But at the same time, what seems insignificant at the time, anyway, now I understand it's obviously part of our lives, you know, but at the time I was like, oh my God.
SPEAKER_03:It's a relative for all of us, isn't
SPEAKER_00:it, in many ways. Exactly. So I don't want to diminish at all, but sometimes it makes me smile, you know. But to go back to your question, which was, sorry, I lost the track.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, you were settling down in Margaret River to focus on somewhere small and quiet and maybe drop the adrenaline.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so that's exactly right. In 2013, eventually I left the UN and I joined David here. And it was quite funny because I just dropped the suitcase and then he said, oh, I've got this assignment back in Sydney, I've got to go. And here I was dreading winter and I was on my own in this new home, I knew no one, it was quite funny actually. But no, I embraced it, it was a huge challenge and I think I missed the international world, no doubt about that. So sometimes it's quite funny when I want to feel I'm a bit connected, I put Al Jazeera on my laptop and I listen to Al Jazeera and I feel connected again. It's bizarre.
SPEAKER_03:That's amazing. So tell me, we've been through a really bizarre year now with this pandemic and I don't know how you felt, but... you know, you, you think it's going to catch up with you at some stage and you can't believe your luck that we've avoided and that kind of stuff. And yet in 20, is it 2019? You flew to photograph an Ebola outbreak. Now it, it doesn't get like infectious disease doesn't get any any more terrifying than ebola with what a 70 death rate or something
SPEAKER_00:it's it's really huge and on top of that actually let me tell you a few days back apparently there were a few cases that resurfaced again in west africa and i was like oh my god hopefully it's not going to sleep under the radar while it is you know but uh yeah no um even though I left the UN, I've always kept in touch with the UN, you know, because I guess it's in my blood now. And so I covered the Ebola crisis in 2014 for three months in the western part of Africa. And I also covered it a couple of years ago. A year and a half ago, I went to eastern part of the Congo. So I covered it twice, completely different context and way of actually dealing with things. But the first one, The daunting part is at the time we still didn't have a vaccine, at least until I left anyway. Whereas the second time I did have the jab. So I had the Ebola jab, which is probably the most painful jab you can ever
SPEAKER_03:have. So you've got to use it up. You've got to use it.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I've got to use it. I've got to get out. But yeah, so... Yeah, no, it was no doubt covering the Ebola was one of the strangest thing I've ever done, because some of those countries were completely shut down to the point that the airports, nothing was functioning. The schools shut down, the airport shut down, the town shut down. It was really complex, you know, to cover the Ebola, especially in West Africa. But actually, it was also complex to cover it in the eastern part of the Congo because of the added layer of of insecurity because a lot of responders had been attacked and sometimes killed, which really added that kind of level of complexity to the problem, which is already problematic.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. And a similar level of denial that we've seen here in the Western world for the disease.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, exactly. And amplified, obviously, over there. So we had a team of... responders who had the job to really demystify and answer the questions and try to, you know, make people understand. It was quite funny. The day I had my vaccination, so I was I was one of the rare, I guess, non-Congolese there. In fact, I was the only white person there. And there was an old lady. She was really scared. And so we couldn't really communicate because she couldn't speak French. Normally, Congolese, a lot of them speak French, but she obviously came from a remote village, and I think she would have spoken Swahili. Or actually, no, sorry, I was in Butembo, so she would have spoken the Nande, which is another language. And... Anyway, but Basan, I showed her where I was going to get the vaccine, and I said, look. And so she saw me, and I said, now you're going to do it. And I photographed her, actually. She accepted to be photographed. And yeah, she did it. And I don't know, she felt better knowing that I was doing it, too.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, wonderful. I know. I mean, that's a lovely thing to be able to do. Did you find, and I noticed with the peacekeeping work, it was about the people in many ways, but did you get an opportunity to photograph people that were suffering from Ebola that were, you know, they had a case of it or...?
SPEAKER_00:I photographed survivors, not the ones in the red zone because obviously they are in a very critical condition and I can't really go there. But I photographed survivors. So incredible stories, actually. This man really broke our hearts. He was a survivor. He had lost his wife. He had lost his mother. He had lost his child. It was only him and his dad left, surviving it, that was in the Congo. And he's holding, so I went to one of the UNICEF crash, which was really sweet, you know one of the childcare center? And he was carrying of a little boy, he was a carrier of this little boy, because he had lost his own boy, it was kind of, he became, it's like he's transferred his love towards his little boy. He was not his own boy, but it was so sweet because he said, look, I just want to, that became his purpose in life, you know, because he had recovered from Ebola and he had, I guess, immunity. He could work in that childcare center and he was caring for that little boy. And that was just the most... Yeah, it was such a beautiful moment. And in fact, it's interesting because a team of PBS arrived after and followed him as well. So if you Googled PBF and Ebola, you could find him on a little snippet of something they've produced. But yeah, so it was full on. No doubt about that, but really interesting at the same time, you know. But that was
SPEAKER_03:only a few years ago, the second trip to Ebola.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. And I was one of the hardest trip I've done in a long time, I have to say, because I was staying in a really dodgy hotel. In fact, the first hotel was so dodgy, I didn't even want to stay. So I moved out two days after, then I went to another one. And I just never felt 100% comfortable, but there was not too many options. And then the funny thing is that also you had to be so organized because I forgot one thing, of course. When you go to a restaurant, it's not like here. You go to a restaurant and 10 minutes later, the food is in your... Now there, it takes about two hours. So you had to be super well organized to tell the guys. And I remember one day I was not organized and I needed to work and edit all of my thing. And so I brought my laptop and the guy said, what do you want? I said, what's the fastest you can do? And he said, oh, a mashed potato. I said, yeah, that's fine. Just do me a mashed potato. Then he had some really dodgy bottle of red wine coming from, I think, South Africa, but probably I'd stayed too long in the heat. But even... that was fine for me I was like just can I have a bit of wine and can I have my mashed potato and Ali did what I've done today that'd be fine you know it was like that every day constantly of course you know you'd be on the go you think you'd be gone for two hours you end up staying eight hours you're underprepared you forget your food I mean you know it was constantly like that you know and and so there were some really funny moments I'm telling you but some Wonderful, heartbreaking moment. Well, obviously not funny really as such, I'm talking in Ebola, but some other contexts where obviously not all is about doom and gloom, right? But I remember once we met this gorgeous lady in Congo and she, We had the most amazing time. So talking about, again, something where it makes you think about your own day, right? I was covering the peacekeepers who are demining, the deminers. So it's a branch. It's not the peacekeepers, sorry, but they are working with the UN to demine because there's a lot of landmines in the eastern part of the Congo, sadly. And so this poor young lady had been walking toward a river to fetch the water and stepped on the landmine and blew and the landmine blew and so she lost above her knee one of the leg, or both, sorry, I have a blank now. But she obviously couldn't walk anymore, and then she had lost the baby that she was pregnant with, and her husband left her. So it was just a parental situation. But the funny thing is, so I was covering the deminers, and I asked them why they started to demine. So they explained to me, oh, that's because this lady stepped on a landmine. So I tracked her down to the MSF, Médecins Sans Frontières Hospital, and she agreed to be photographed. So I photographed her there, then went on and felt a bit sort of You know, I felt bad a little bit because she had the most beaming smile. She was the most beautiful lady, yet what happened to her was so horrible. And then her husband thought, oh, you're useless to me. I'll leave you now. And she lost the baby and she lost her legs. I mean, you know, what else can happen, really? Anyway, I went to see one of my colleagues and I said, what would it take for us? How much would it cost? What if we organized a flight to Goma? where we have prosthetic legs and things created by this, I think it was the Red Cross Federation. What would it take to fly her and maybe do something? And so he gave me a number, which was, and I was like, oh, let's do some fundraiser. And with all the peacekeepers working with us, I'm sure we can raise, that's not like huge amount of money. So anyway, and then we, it was quite funny, we completely bypassed the red tape because she was put on a UN flight in a way that was, You know, normally you need 100 million, you know, signed signature. But I don't know how she went. Oh, she went to Goma. And two months after, I was already back to East Timor meanwhile. But this colleague sent me a picture of her. And she was standing with the prosthetic legs and two, you know, how do you call it? Crutches. Yeah, crutches. And she was stepping out of the plane with this beam, you know. And I was like... You know, I know it's only her, but we may have changed a little bit of her life by... Because otherwise, what would she do? She was living in a hut, you know, with nothing in it, you know. And what would she do all the days? You know, at least with that, she could, you know, do a minimal of something. So anyway, I thought... Sometimes, even though we're there to obviously change the life of so many others, but sometimes on an individual basis, it's nice to do these things, those concrete things, you know.
SPEAKER_03:How lovely. And it must also be frustrating that you can't just do it for everybody in that environment. But you are doing something unlike most of the world.
SPEAKER_00:My best Christmas, I'm telling you, Paul, my best Christmas ever. They're not really here. Personally, I shouldn't say that. Don't
SPEAKER_03:tell David.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, he knows I don't like Christmas. But when I was in East Timor or in the Congo or in South Sudan, we always organized Christmas for orphans because we have lots of orphan places. And it was always such a joy to get gifts, to get food. And I remember last time in Congo, I said, oh, what would you like? They said, oh, can we have a goat? And I said, you know what? Can I give you the money? You'll get the goat because I'm not sure how to get a goat in a U.N. car. I'm not sure that's going to work.
SPEAKER_03:Meals ready to eat, goats ready to eat. Yes,
SPEAKER_00:good. Yeah, so it was really funny. So we organized those Christmas for orphans and people who sometimes were disadvantaged for all sorts of reasons. And I just found that so much more interesting. you know, soulful or feeding my soul, you know.
SPEAKER_03:How lovely, how lovely. So when you were in Western Australia and had moved there, just sort of pivoting from the United Nations work. Yes, of course. You've started a body of work called Gunga Runga Ngawa, which was aerial photography. That is so different from everything else that I've seen of your work. But I will say that the fact you've gone to the trouble of bringing local Indigenous language into the story and you followed it up with Ngalawonga, you know, sort of a similar show but talking more about the language. So, again, you're following this humanitarian angle. But if you just looked at the photographs of the aerials, you would just say, oh, yeah, beautiful aerials, beautiful countryside, fascinating place. But you've managed to bring a human... aspect to it and an art aspect and a cultural connection. Can you tell me a little about how that started and what was the interest there?
SPEAKER_00:Actually, it's an idea that I had almost 20 or at least 20 years ago, basically, that time when I went to East Timor. Just before that, literally probably six months earlier, I was actually on my way to the Mornington Islands, which is north of, you know, sort of near Darwin in the in that gulf there and because there were some last remaining speakers of the language and I was for some reason I got really fascinated by it I had seen a United Nation or UNESCO sort of world map you know of the disappearing languages and for some reason it just you know it gave shivers you know into my spine and I just thought oh wouldn't it be nice to document some of the last remaining speakers and just you know but I put that in the back bench because my life took a different turn. I ended up going to Timor and subsequently 10 years in the UN anyway. So when I came back here, And I started doing a few aerials around here and that was fine. But I agree with you, I think that humanitarian bug inside me started to spark up again and the project that I had put in the back of my mind for so many years resurfaced. And I looked at the map again and I was, I got fascinated, you know, I thought, oh my God, in the back garden of where I live, there's all of these things that seems amazing. So I decided, I'm going to first take aerials to take the pulse of the country from above, just to see how it looks from above first. And I started with that, and I really loved actually those aerials. One of them became the hero face of my book, et cetera. But you are right, these are aerials, and whilst they're fine, I wanted the human component. Eventually, it was quite funny. I was staying in an Airbnb and the people there had been living 17 years in Kalgoorlie. And so they saw that I was kind of pacing around trying to think how I'm going to meet elders. Like, what do you do? Where do you turn up? And eventually they connected me with this beautiful lady called Laurel Cooper. She lives in Kalgoorlie. She's an indigenous elder and absolutely wonderful lady of the Stolen Generation. So her story is quite You know, she was eaten in a sugar bag until the age of five, until her mom decided to put her on a mission. Otherwise, she would have been removed to a much further mission, and she didn't want to lose track of her. And anyway... I met her and Laurel said, why don't you come on country with us? We have a place. And so it's not far, you know, it's near Leonora and Laverton. And I said, sure. So packed up my bags, stayed about a week to 10 days there. And that's where I started. And really, honestly, I had no idea. I have to be honest with you. I learned so much then. Everything was brand new to me about all the indigenous culture, the Aboriginal Australian culture. And I just realized, oh my God, I really need to now delve into that because this is where I live. I live in Australia. I'm Australian. I actually need to understand. And you know, there's so much sort of negative news. And I knew that amongst all of these, there must be obviously something. And of course, everything was amazing. The people were so friendly, welcoming me to their families and their lands and their homes. And so... I decided to make that a kind of a long-term project. I figured out, okay, financially, what can I afford myself? And I, all right, well, I'll come, you know, stay for three weeks there, come home, work a bit, go back, you know. So I did some back and forth like that for about 18 months to up to two years. And eventually, I had this building of this body of work. And I said, that would be great if we could do an exhibition. And we launched it in Calgary in 2016. And subsequently, it toured with Art on the Move, which is an organization that enables you to tour your exhibition around the state, which is really
SPEAKER_03:incredible. That's a brilliant opportunity. I think it's such a tragedy when a show is used once. Yeah, I know. You know?
SPEAKER_00:But that's the thing. And I said, oh, my God, I can't afford it. So this lady was really incredibly supportive, Kim. And so I was really lucky to be, you know, with Art on the Move. And we also... I went twice in Paris, and I went to see the ambassador, and I said, I really would love to have this show here with you. And he's probably used to institutions, institutions coming to him, not really as such individuals, right? But then... It did happen. We took the show to Paris and it stayed for eight months at the embassy. And I flew with a couple of elders. They were the children of the elders of my generation. And we opened the show and that was extraordinary. It was amazing. And we get invited to talk at UNESCO, you know, incredible things, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, wow. And it's just, it's the sensitivity of you seeing that connection. And, you know, I've always thought when you look at, When you look at Dreamtime art and stories and you listen to the stories, you feel like these people used to fly. They know how to fly. And they know how to see the country like you've seen it and photographed it.
SPEAKER_00:For sure. Some of my photos, I can't believe it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I can't believe it either. It's just… Like a painting. Yeah. I mean, how do they see the same that you've seen? It's incredible, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:they look even yesterday uh i went with one of the elder on one of the sacred ground here sort of away from my great river and they just the country is part of them they know the country so well everything the plants they were showing me some of the plants the rocks it's just like a gps inbuilt that's what it is they just really can read the land in a way that you and I can't, maybe we could if we had learned, but we have not learned that way, I believe anyway. And so there's so much knowledge through, but there's so much knowledge that's also gone away. And I guess the whole purpose of my exhibition and my story is really to raise at least some awareness of the richness and the uniqueness, you know, of what we have. And you also have extraordinary museum in Adelaide. I'm somewhat jealous. You've got some incredible like art gallery and museum I love it.
SPEAKER_03:They're about to build a new one, Indigenous Cultural Centre,
SPEAKER_00:which
SPEAKER_03:is fabulous. And we have the Tanandi Festival, which is the largest physical art festival in the entire world, and it goes from all the way through to Darwin, through the centre of Australia, and it's housed here. So this is the sort of thing that shows like yours and bodies of work like yours are celebrated at festivals.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's incredible what you have there. So I have to say I really loved Adelaide. Whenever I can, I'll be back, you know, so that's for sure. But yeah, to come back to the stories, I think, you know, I think each and every one of us as photographers, we obviously have our own personal stories. love for particular stories and I guess mine is that I'm continuing now the work because I'm working on quite a major exhibition towards the end of the year where I will remount Nalawanga, I will remount some of the prior work and also have new work now and everything will be presented towards the end of the year so it's great but it's a bit scary as you know because you just have to, I mean you know how it is to prepare all of this but it's exciting at the same time and I absolutely love I think, you know, I'm 51 now and it's the first time in my life or one of the rare time I can say I really feel at peace with what I'm doing, you know, with the things that I've created. You know, it took me a while, but I'm really... Do you know what I mean? Like when you reach a point where you feel, oh, it's really... I've been blessed to do all of those things, but I'm still doing things that interest me. It's really important. I can't do boring things. In fact, I'm not really good with commercial work. Somebody commissioned me things that I don't want to do, so I'm really probably not the best photographer, so don't come to me. I'm much better at obviously creating my own things, but it's also obviously financially very tough because there are so many times where you're kind of scraping the barrel. But at least I do what I want to do. So it's a kind of a trade-off. I think it's whatever you want to make in life, really. So I want to live my life day by day fully. So tomorrow is another day.
SPEAKER_03:And you seem to have such a good knowledge of yourself. And, I mean, this is what I think everybody, every human struggles with is, You know, what makes us happy, what drives us. And, I mean, sometimes we think we know. You seem to have a good grasp on this sort of a storytelling. And clearly you said that your early years you were spent travelling, but were your family interested in social justice and did it come from there? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, no. But they were huge travelers. They were huge travelers. We traveled a lot when I was young. And also remember I... So when I was young, I was completely fascinated by languages. In fact, at school, I learned three languages, English, Spanish, and Chinese. So that was three languages we learned at school. Well, at least I chose. So that, and I had this fascination for... So I was listening to radios, you know, from around the world, you know, and sometimes I could not understand, but I was traveling in my mind already. So So I think it was there. And then the fascination for the art, you know, like Salvador Dali and the painters and all of this. But the traveling was a huge thing for me. So that's why when I started photography, yeah, it's true. I was not 15 or 16. I was already pretty much 28. But I had seen so much and absorbed so much. I think it's part of me in some ways. And I think it's beyond photography. It's very much storytelling as well. It's incorporating elements of... know diverse elements of together it's not pure photography i think it's yeah it's documentary as well as well those
SPEAKER_03:projections and the video uh that
SPEAKER_00:as well yeah yeah that's those projections onto the translucent uh yeah they're stunning i mean that's a very clever use of space It was great. Like, yeah, we're going to remount that. So that was a great way to present something in a different way, you know. And I'm not expecting people to sit for 25 minutes because it's a projection that goes on loop and that is 25 minutes. But it's in a way that... Every speaker comes maybe for about a minute. So I figured that maybe people won't get too bored. They want to wait for the next and the next. So maybe they'll stay a bit longer. Because, you know, nowadays, you know how it is, you know, with the technology and everything. There's a bit of an attention span, which is quite short. And so... It's almost like how you raise awareness without obviously, and you keep the integrity of it, but at the same time, you make it in a way that you think people will engage with you. So it was trying to find that balance, really.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it's so challenging with the indigenous languages of Australia where it was not written. It was all verbal history, oral history written. Yes. And so that's where your connection of storytelling with imagery and their storytelling with imagery and paintings and like that's where it matches so well and comes together so well.
SPEAKER_00:I just want people to hear what do they sound like, by the way, because, you know, there's not just English here. Sure, English is, but... You've got all of this. We're sitting on gold, and I'm not talking like the material gold. We're really, I wish we were dedicating much more money, the government, to realize that, oh my God, we need to do much more to protect this oral, intangible history. Because I think we'll bite our fingers in 50 years thinking, what the hell were we thinking? All of this is gone, you know what I mean? Because there's so much knowledge that's just going to disappear and maybe won't even get recorded ordered and so that makes me a little bit sad but at the same time I'm thinking oh well I'll do whatever I can do myself and what interests me obviously and it's like the other day one elder passed away and I was really sad Mr Cook and um so normally you don't refer them by their first name you know when they pass away so that's why we refer him to Mr Cook but um I I What's interesting is a couple of years ago, I was walking in Wiluna in Western Australia. So that's sort of 1,500 kilometers from where I live. It's a small community of 300 people. And he was sitting under a tree in sort of a deserted area. And he called me over and he said, hey, Martin, what are you doing here? And I hadn't seen him in a few years. And he said, do you have your camera? And I said, yes. He said, yes. Can you record me? I said, sure. He said, I would like to use the story around my birth. And I'm like, okay. So off we went. We recorded it 15 minutes in English and maybe four or five minutes in language, which I'm trying now to get translated because I have to be honest, I have put it away for a couple of years, not really thinking too much about it, but I kept it. And the other day when he passed away, I asked the authorization from his daughter if she didn't mind if I post maybe his picture and that link to the video. And I'm so happy I did it because this was a video, and I hope she will appreciate having that video of her dad and some lovely portrait that I did of him at the time. But the video is actually about his birth, which is quite, it's actually a talk. It is a traumatic story, but he's telling it in a, I guess, normal way. When you think about the story, that's quite traumatic. And so I thought, oh, that's interesting. He really wanted me to record it, but I'm glad I did it, actually. That's an honor. Yeah, and now... His family will have it, you know. And they're having, I think, funeral very soon in Wonan. And maybe, God knows, you know, I said to the family, I said, of course, feel free to use the pictures. And if you need to use, it depends, you know, what their relationship with photography and if they want to show or not. But obviously, I shared that with them, you know, because that's important. It's something that could be more significant maybe one day, even in 50 years, where somebody would say, oh, look at your great grandpa, you know. as opposed to not having anything, any trace. So, yeah, I guess that's what sort of keeps me going, really.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's exciting. I mean, you've got a lot where you're working towards with the restaging of the show. Yes. And obviously this interest in Indigenous culture and language is persisting with your work and you're going to keep progressing that. So you've got a lot ahead of you, Martine. You've got a very busy time. I do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's fun though. It's all fun and lots of travel this year as well. Sort of like I'm about to go to do a residency actually in Karnama. So I'm looking forward to that. It's called Ebb and Flow. There's quite a bunch of artists that are going to be part of this residency or are part of this residency. And then after that, I will travel back to the gold fields to finish one work with one elder. And then after that, I will focus with the work here, with the matriarchal door where I live, actually.
SPEAKER_02:All
SPEAKER_00:right. And then, yes. And then after that, then on to the– oh, and then we have, of course, the Margaret Chigot Open Studio in September. Anyway, so you see, I think I've got my timeline sorted for the whole year, you know. But it's exciting. I love– absolutely, I wouldn't– I don't think I'd change my profession for any others, really.
SPEAKER_03:You certainly– You live life like it's yours and you consume it like very few people do. It's just wonderful. Well, that's our hour, Martine. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. It's been a real pleasure. It's just the light coming in through the window. It's just wonderful. Thank you so much.
UNKNOWN:Thank you, Paul.
SPEAKER_03:Have a great day. Yeah, I will. Bye. So tell me... Who flies into a pandemic, a pandemic, it wasn't a pandemic, who flies into an Ebola crisis to take photographs? I mean, that's, it's not the takeaway from Martine's interview. I am an
SPEAKER_04:extremely anxious person. You know how I love to relate these things back to me. Let's
SPEAKER_03:talk about cutting chicken up.
SPEAKER_04:No, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:She puts gloves on. She clears the house. You know, it's just stupid. And there's Martine going to- Ebola. Like out of
SPEAKER_04:all the viruses on the planet, Ebola would be one of those ones that I'm just like-
SPEAKER_03:What's the 30% death rate or something like
SPEAKER_04:that? Oh, it's just fucking horrendous. And you bleed from all your RFI. Yeah, right. It's like a whole thing. So no, that is insanity.
SPEAKER_03:Do you know what I thought what I- Yeah, that's amazing. And her work with the United Nations is incredible and fascinating. But what I really love is when I flipped onto her imagery, and I've been watching her imagery for years, I see that she's taken on the aerial Perth, aerials over Perth. Which is such a
SPEAKER_04:departure. But then she
SPEAKER_03:puts the news in it. No, no, no. There's so much of that happening in Perth, people, because you've got these beautiful beaches with a beautiful sky. And it's
SPEAKER_04:so
SPEAKER_03:huge. And, you know, some people call them square hills, you know, because it's got that. And I was looking at it going, oh, right, okay, yeah, so she's doing what everyone else is doing over there. But then she's not doing what everyone else is doing because she's having a conversation with the elders, the Indigenous elders of the Plains, of the country there and their language and their culture and she's you know she's having this back and forth conversation because it's a you know this view of their country they would not have seen unless they were astral travelling themselves, flying, you know, out-of-body experiences, flying and seeing above that. It's not of their culture to build planes and fly around. That's just not a thing that's happened to them. But isn't
SPEAKER_04:there an element of Indigenous art that is
SPEAKER_03:kind of aerial? Well, this is the thing. It really does. And I'm not sure how much she's contemplated that as part of it, but you do look at a lot of Indigenous culture and art.
SPEAKER_04:Well, because isn't that sort of U-shaped art? is the symbol for a person sitting on the ground because that's what they look like from above because they've got their legs crossed and so they form that kind of U-shape. That's like from art school 350 years ago, so I could be wrong.
SPEAKER_03:But it is that wonderful– a lot of people just take those pictures and say, yeah, they're nice pictures, but Martine engages in a deeper discussion of what those pictures are about and then tries and involves the culture in talking about those pictures and then using it to– to have this conversation back and forth. I really love that. I thought that is what makes an artist over a pictorialist, someone just taking nice pictures. There's nothing wrong with that. It's lovely having nice stuff on your walls. But I think if I was a collector, and I don't look at everything commercially, but if I was a collector or wanting to be collected, you want to– Give the best story. You want to have a reason for doing the work.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, is that the difference between art and craft? I mean, you know, with this, my latest moment of craziness of applying for the contemporary art.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but hang on. You need to explain. You're applying for a contemporary art university in South Australia, but what are you wanting to major in?
SPEAKER_04:Well, no, I haven't decided that. No, we know what you're going for. Don't you pigeonhole me.
UNKNOWN:No. No.
SPEAKER_04:No. Shut up. What I would like to say... What I would like to say is I'm actually making a comment about something else.
SPEAKER_01:What I'm talking about is... I'll make that up to you later.
SPEAKER_04:Just fuck you. Shut up and listen for once in your goddamn life. I'm wagging your finger. I will. I'm wagging it. So what I'm saying is... So there's two institutions in Adelaide, large institutions that you can study visual arts in, right? There's Central School of Art or what they call now Adelaide School of Art or something. And there is UniSA, right? UniSA, you apply through SATAC with a score of your final. SATAC stands for? It's a tertiary entrance group. And you apply with your score that you have leaving year 12 or a stat test score, right? And it's basically if your score is high, you get in, right? If there's enough
SPEAKER_03:spots.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. With Central, you have to show that you can do stuff and you can get in with scores and various other things. I haven't done the process, so I don't fully understand it.
SPEAKER_03:But it is more based on your skill set rather than how well you did at school.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Isn't that better? No. No. And here's why I think it's not.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Not that I'm criticising Central because they're an excellent school with amazing tutors and they do beautiful, lovely things. But, like, for instance, in first year
SPEAKER_03:– The experience expressed by one of these hosts is her opinions only and not the opinion of both hosts.
SPEAKER_04:So you can– you have to do a subject in that class. Before you do any other subjects, you must complete drawing fundamentals, which means– and the drawing fundamentals is a six-hour class and it's on a Monday and there is no option. You don't get an option of doing it on a Thursday night. You don't get an option of doing it halftime. You have to do it six hours on a Monday and that's just what it is. And it's drawing fundamentals, right? So you have to be able to draw because I've done their drawing fundamentals class and it almost killed me. Like it is like old school. It's like draw an egg. It's colour this box in at 10% grey, then 20% grey, then 30% grey, then 40, right? So it is a thing. Now, I've done it. And it's amazing. But what I find really interesting is that the contemporary art one at UNISA, they don't do that. They don't have that. Their entire basis of their course is based on the idea, on the concept, and that the concept can be expressed in 40,000 different ways. And if you can't draw, it doesn't matter. If you can express the concept. If you have to be able to draw to express the concept in the best way possible, then learn to draw. That's what you want to do. And I find that really, really interesting. Because I've been to both institutions. I got my visual communications graphic design degree recently. 300 years ago from that institution. And I've done a whole lot of work at, at central as well. So it's going to be really interesting because there are kids in there that potentially haven't done a lot of creative work at all. And they're in this class. So it's going to be really, because one of the things I was like, God, it's been forever since I've drawn a picture. I'm going to have to go into this fucking class and draw a picture. No, I'm not. And so it's, it's, and yet there's a, and so, so one of the leading back to what you were talking about, I think there is an aspect of art versus craft that is one based around trying to express a broader idea. So, like, we know a glass artist, or we don't really know him anymore, but he had children, went to school with his kids. Giles... Bettison. Bettison. Yes. And his work is very beautiful and he does glass work. And now you can be a glass blower and you can make big vases that have lovely colours and they're very beautiful and they could actually be very finely made, right? But is that an art, a very finely made piece? I would argue it's a craft if there's not an idea behind the piece. With Giles, what his ideas are, sort of revolve around this concept of what historically has been viewed as valuable by humans. So humans have historically valued, in his interpretation, things that are very finely detailed. The more detail involved in an object, the higher its value. And so his pieces are like... mind-blowingly complicated and complex in their formation. And that is part of why his stuff is so collectible and why it's considered art. So he can sell one vase for$15,000 because this idea and the craft linked together form this thing that is valued so much more than just a fancy pot. And I think that's what I find interesting that those two things working together. And whilst you can have art without craft, I don't think you can have craft that is anything other than craft unless you bring that element of concept to it. So you can have art that doesn't involve any skills at all, but the idea is there. And if it's executed beautifully, then that's all that matters.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that's possibly what– the majority of the population, those that may not understand art– well, not understand it, but may not have spent enough time looking at art, why they say, oh, that's not art, because it's not clever enough. They can't separate the concept of craft– the concept and craft. They can't separate the two. They think that great art has got to have– Brilliant craft as well in it. And it's got to be complicated. And of course, modern art, this is what's happened with Basquiat and Pollock and all those artists that people look at and go, oh, my kid could do that.
SPEAKER_04:Rothko's the one everybody goes to because it's just a flat paint. Well, it's not actually. There's a lot more to it, yeah. But it is basically a canvas with one colour
SPEAKER_03:on it. And of course, the thing is with seeing that stuff like Rothko, you– you see a rendering of it in a book and it is not... Postage stamp size. It's not original. Like the thing you've got to behold the slab of colour in front of you. It's the
SPEAKER_04:size, it's
SPEAKER_03:the scale. Yeah, it's everything. But this is the whole separation and this is why, and I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that... This is why like everything in life, if you have an interest in it, you should learn, become curious and learn more about it because the more you see, the more you know, you might understand the subtleties and the more value you get out of that experience of exploring the world because it's infinite. It's infinite. But that is
SPEAKER_04:also the difference between what you were saying earlier about– Today's interview. Martine's work. Yeah, is that– see, I'm bringing it back around. Do you see? I'm so proud of you. I'm bringing it back around. I'm
SPEAKER_03:so
SPEAKER_04:proud of you. I am a professional, okay? You are. A professional. You are. So what I'm saying is that her stuff is not just another person with a drone taking photos from up in the sky because of the element of meaning and interpretation with the Indigenous and the connection with the land of the Indigenous peoples. And so that's where it then becomes something else. Yeah. It's not just– because, like, oh, my God. If I see another dude taking photos of whales in the fucking ocean with his drone, I'm going to lose it. Like, I'm over it. Leave the goddamn whales alone. The whales used to be able to be out there in the nude, frolicking around, having a good time. Now there's some fucking douchebag with a bloody$2,000 bloody drone going above these poor creatures that just want to be out there. They finally got away from us. We're finally not trying to shove them back into the water and fart around with them. And stab at them. And stab at them. And take their brains. And now we've got this fucking drone over their heads. God damn it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's let these people go. That was my rant. Did you like that? That was
SPEAKER_04:a little quickie for everyone. Everyone who's missed my rantiness, I gave you– just flew
SPEAKER_03:in there for a bit. And the other thing is we need to point out to people too that– Send
SPEAKER_04:your complaints to Paul at Atkinson.
UNKNOWN:No.
SPEAKER_03:No. We're setting up a forum group outside of the– Oh, my God. And we're probably going to close down our Facebook. We are
SPEAKER_04:telling Mark Zuckerberg to suck it.
SPEAKER_03:Suck a burger. So, yeah, just keep your eyes open for that. And, look, we love you all. We do. We're sorry we're taking a lot of time getting regular. It's my fault. It's
SPEAKER_04:been hell. Anyone who wants to talk about tonsil bleeds, give me a ring.
SPEAKER_03:All right. Good night. Good day. Love you. Love you. Bye.
UNKNOWN:Bye.