Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 34 - PRISM
In a first for the podcast, Paul interviews the six members of PRISM, a group exhibition formed as part of a biennial class the Centre for Creative Photography runs. Lead by Gavin Blake, it is a heroic undertaking to bring a group of students through the process of staging a truly cohesive show.
The members of PRISM are John King, Paul Watson, Alifiya Haidermota, Thomas Gloyn, Jiri Bruderhans and Geoff Borg.
Paul and Kate also discuss Non Fungible Tokens (NFT), just for fun.
The PRISM website:
https://prismexhibition.com/home-1
Bookings for the launch event:
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/prism-exhibition-opening-registration-141922176049
Print sales:
https://prism-exhibition.myshopify.com/
The Centre for Creative Photography (the CCP):
https://www.ccp.sa.edu.au
Gavin Blake interviewed on our podcast:
https://atkins.com.au/atkins-labcast/atkins-labcast-podcast-episode-22-gavin-blake
Nathan Kaso:
https://www.nathankaso.com
NFT’s, Non Fungible Tokens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-fungible_token
Beeple:
https://www.beeple-crap.com
Microsoft men dancing:
https://youtu.be/lAkuJXGldrM
Hello listeners, it's Paul here and I won't point at Kate because she's
SPEAKER_03:that mouth...
SPEAKER_04:I'm chucking on
SPEAKER_03:a chocolate!
SPEAKER_04:She has a mouthful of Lindit...
SPEAKER_03:Lindit, you idiot.
SPEAKER_04:Lindit chocolate by Lindor, by one of our... given to us... I think it's an Easter gift?
UNKNOWN:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:By one of our newest staff members,
SPEAKER_03:Charlotte. I just want to say to our New Zealand listeners.
SPEAKER_04:You're really drooling that chocolate.
SPEAKER_03:I am not. It's my stupid braces. I can't even
SPEAKER_04:talk properly. Oh my God. I
SPEAKER_03:just want to say to our New Zealand listeners that I am prepared to do all kinds of things for New Zealand chocolate.
SPEAKER_04:What kind of things?
SPEAKER_03:And or, wait for it, burger rings.
SPEAKER_04:Why burgerings?
SPEAKER_03:Because the New Zealand burgerings are the burgerings of my childhood. And I was raised by dirty hippies who refused to allow me to eat anything other than carob, homemade brick bread and fucking... like a lick of honey here and there. And so any kind of artificial flavouring, I am there for it. And Burger Rings used to be amazing. It used to be just my favourite thing.
SPEAKER_04:So why were they banned in Australia? It's not
SPEAKER_03:banned in Australia. Whatever the bullshit is that they make now and call Burger Rings are not fucking Burger Rings. They are just an abomination.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And when we went to New Zealand to Cy and Soph's beautiful workshop on the top of a volcano. On
SPEAKER_04:the side of a volcano because from the top we'd be in the cauldron.
SPEAKER_03:We don't want to be in the cauldron because that's where the bubbly hot stuff is. Yes, you're still talking. So that thing, we were there and they had– well, they didn't. A shop had burger rings and I was like, burger rings? Okay, let's see if these are the burger rings that I remember. as Burger Rings or if they're just the shit Burger Rings we have now. Because the thing that I love about New Zealand, it's like Australia was in 1997. That's what I felt like when I was there.
SPEAKER_04:Are you saying Burger Rings are non-fungible? Oh, fuck me dead. This is a topic for the
SPEAKER_03:– You leapt into that entirely much faster and I'm talking about snacks and now we're getting into that. No,
SPEAKER_04:no, just for the listeners. I only mention it then because after this– podcast interview thing-o, which I'll explain before we get into it in a minute. We're going to talk about NFTs, non-fungible tokens.
SPEAKER_03:Is this how you get everyone to hang on?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, unless the whole show.
SPEAKER_03:Not that I think that. Or they're just going to skip until they get to the bit they like.
SPEAKER_04:They want to hear more about burgerings, I think.
SPEAKER_03:Burgerings.
SPEAKER_04:So keep going about you think.
SPEAKER_03:I'm just saying, if a New Zealander feels like sending me a packet of burgerings, I won't kick them out of bed.
SPEAKER_04:And what brand of chocolate is it from New Zealand?
SPEAKER_03:The only brand that counts.
SPEAKER_04:What is it?
SPEAKER_03:It's Whittaker's.
SPEAKER_04:Whittaker's. I thought it was going to be Wilmot's, but I remember Wilmot's is a lunch
SPEAKER_03:shop around the corner. Wilmot's is a bloody lunch shop around the corner, you idiot. Yes,
SPEAKER_04:Whittaker's. Anyway, I'm just saying, dark chocolate and Burger Rings. Very exciting.
SPEAKER_03:Burger Rings.
SPEAKER_04:Dark chocolate?
SPEAKER_03:I like milk chocolate. Yeah, but I'm not talking about you, believe it or not. I know it's unusual because I'm always talking about you.
SPEAKER_04:I know. Oh, we also mentioned a new staff member, Charlotte Rollinson, who gave us this chocolate. The lovely chocolate. Which is wonderful. We've got a few new staff members in the building, which is kind of cool. But those customer-facing ones, we've got Jade and we've got Charlotte.
SPEAKER_03:Hang on, Frank's complaining.
SPEAKER_04:Frank is upset. What is Frank upset about? Do you think he might want to go to the loo?
SPEAKER_03:No, that's the chair making that noise you fuck with. It's a chair. Frank doesn't fart like that. He's silent but deadly, isn't my baby?
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so new customers, new kind
SPEAKER_03:of staff. Look at you, task, task. We're
SPEAKER_04:busy, lots of customers.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, busy, lots of customers, new staff. Lots of new
SPEAKER_04:dudes in the framing
SPEAKER_03:department. New dudes in the framing department. We had a staff– we had our Christmas party in– Which was
SPEAKER_04:awesome.
SPEAKER_03:In– Whenever it was March. At low and
SPEAKER_04:slow. Our Christmas party happened in March, not December because we were too busy and there was COVID lockdowns.
SPEAKER_03:And it was hell. And
SPEAKER_04:so we had our Christmas party and it was wonderful. We had
SPEAKER_03:an American-style
SPEAKER_04:barbecue place and everyone had lots to eat and drink. Yes. It was wonderful.
SPEAKER_03:It was really lovely. And
SPEAKER_04:then afterwards we went to Friend of the Show. and employee Tony Kearney's cool apartment.
SPEAKER_03:And I left that place with my pockets bulging. I didn't. I didn't steal anything, Tony, I promise. I just
SPEAKER_04:wanted desperately. His ancient paint factory apartment is beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:It's not the fact that it's an ancient paint factory. It's the fact that Tony just has sublime taste and a keenly trained eye for design. which means that he can walk into a building and come out with the thing that nobody knows is worth$5,000 and he buys it for 20 cents and we all want to vomit.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, with jealousy.
SPEAKER_03:Correct. There was a mottled Bakelite collection that made me physically ill.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, you were sicko.
SPEAKER_03:By how much I wanted it, how jealous I was and how moved I was by how beautiful it was. Yeah, it
SPEAKER_04:was pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_03:It was horrendous.
SPEAKER_04:So to the guests of the show of this episode, this was a tricky one because it was like playing a game of cricket. Sort of thing. And I was a batsman. Yes. Hang on, I was bowling at them and they were bad.
SPEAKER_03:Don't do cricket analogies. I fucking hate cricket. Don't write in. I don't care. I don't like cricket. Cricket can suck it.
SPEAKER_04:What did you think of the interview, Kate?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I thought you showed Oprah level of interview control. And purely if only to listen to it for that reason. I didn't give
SPEAKER_04:any cards away.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting. No. But you managed a large group of people engaging each and every one of them to an equal level. and good level where they all said interesting things that
SPEAKER_04:were– How– write and review my podcast,
SPEAKER_03:Kate. Well, it's just, you know, like it's not an easy thing to do. I couldn't do it. I would have just talked about myself the whole time, hence the reason I don't do the interviews. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But it was interesting because we'd not done it before. We didn't know if it was going to work.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And it's interesting to hear all the different ways that people get into art and what they do and why they do
SPEAKER_04:it. And interestingly– The idea of putting a group together that really don't know each other well and get them to be very focused on what they're trying to put together in the work and curating a show that's not just the greatest hits.
SPEAKER_03:And the importance of the curator who goes, no, we're not putting that in. I don't care that you like it. It doesn't relate to the job, to the exhibition as a whole.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:That was something they all talked about, kind of going, I really wanted to have my blah, blah, blah, but apparently it didn't fit. And I love that. Keep it tight. Yeah, I think
SPEAKER_04:it's great.
SPEAKER_03:Curation is for any creative person, any single creative person. You're a writer, you're a photographer. Shut up.
SPEAKER_04:Not as in not partnered. Shut up.
SPEAKER_03:Writer, photographer, dressmaker, anything. Working out what's good and what isn't, what to keep and what to chuck. Hardest thing. Hardest thing. On your own work, hardest thing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And if you're a person that really cares and loves and has all that emotional stuff, it gets even harder. Yeah. Which is why I'm such a great curator because no emotions. Shut it down. Destroy everything.
SPEAKER_04:Do you ever, like, curate my collections of stuff?
SPEAKER_03:Are you kidding? You have no idea how much of your shit I've chucked out. Don't say that. You don't even know. I'm looking
SPEAKER_04:at my cameras. I don't see one missing one.
SPEAKER_03:I know. You don't see one missing one. Okay. Let's
SPEAKER_04:let these lovely people, because I'm now.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, everybody has to look out for our sneak speak. Our sneak speak. Our sneak peek. Our sneak speak.
SPEAKER_04:I'll peek snuck.
SPEAKER_03:Fuck you. This chair sounds like it's farting. And we have our sneak peek at our lab tour.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah. That's so cool.
SPEAKER_03:The lab tour video sneak. Oh, we've got a
SPEAKER_04:link to it. I'm writing it
SPEAKER_03:down. Okay. I'm going to put it on the socials this week and pump the shit out of it because the walking fucking genius is Nathan Caso.
SPEAKER_04:Nathan.
SPEAKER_03:Nathan, are you hearing me?
SPEAKER_04:Nathan.
SPEAKER_03:Nathan.
SPEAKER_04:Nathan.
SPEAKER_03:Can you hear? Nathan. We love you and you're fucking genius.
SPEAKER_04:Great job, Nathan.
SPEAKER_03:He did such a good fucking job. He's such a good guy. Anyway, did a fucking video. Three minutes. He managed to get three minutes out of the three days of fucking insanity that we threw at him.
SPEAKER_04:I know, it's awesome.
SPEAKER_03:And it's pretty good. But the long, full... full mother is on its way. I think it'll take about 10 years off of Nathan's life to get through
SPEAKER_04:it. And for you guys to watch it.
SPEAKER_03:I have to fucking watch it as well. We
SPEAKER_04:have
SPEAKER_03:to break it down to episodes. I have to listen to you talk. There was a couple of times there where he was like, hey. you don't really look like you're really
SPEAKER_04:listening to Paul. He told you. Can you look a bit more interested, Kate? It's because I'm
SPEAKER_03:not listening to him.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, now you're listening to me because we're going to shut up and let these
SPEAKER_03:people listen to you. Oh, yes, because you're all– look at what's it been, nine minutes and 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_04:Nine minutes, 42, 43, 44. Okay, enjoy Prism. And if you get a chance
SPEAKER_03:– You really got to focus on the–
SPEAKER_04:Prism. Enjoy Prism and the Prismers. On the inside, the rose is blue.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, we're such an old married cat cuddling. We both did that at the same time. Okay, everybody, enjoy
SPEAKER_04:the Prism group and see if you get a chance to go and see the show. The website has a lot of good stuff on it. All the work is for sale, which is something to point out. It's been a really interesting little exercise for them. You should support them. These are people like... You and me, everyday people trying to have their first exhibition. It's very cool and it's beautifully done and it's extremely professional. So listen and learn.
SPEAKER_03:And come back for the peak internet weirdness discussion.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Goodbye.
SPEAKER_04:We've got something new happening this week for all of our fabulous listeners out there. I'm actually speaking with a group of artists that have come together to put an exhibition on and I figured that, well, we've never done a group of six people so those of you who are listening and listen to the podcast regularly know it's just normally me and someone else and we're normally drinking. There's no alcohol at all involved in this production, no animals or people were hurt in this production, perhaps a little bit of pointy question asking might be relevant but I'm here with a PRISM group who are working together to put an exhibition on that will be opening. I'm introducing Thomas first. Thomas, when does the Prism exhibition open?
SPEAKER_01:So it opens on the 12th of April at the National Wine Centre. Okay, so 12th of April is opening. How long does it run for? Two months. It'll be up almost to the end of May.
SPEAKER_04:Excellent, excellent. So this is an exhibition that's been put together by a group of students. Well, they're not all students. Some of them are past students of the Centre for Creative Photography. But they've chosen to be a part of an exhibition class, a class specifically put on for putting a show around it. So, Alifia, would you say that, and I'd like to introduce Alifia, please. The intention of the exhibition group is to learn how to put a professional exhibition on. Would you say that?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it's been a full-on process. six months where we have been learning of planning and organizing an exhibition
SPEAKER_04:okay and tell me your um have you studied at the center for creative photography before
SPEAKER_00:yes i've been here for five years oh
SPEAKER_04:wow you're part of the furniture
SPEAKER_00:yeah almost in and out
SPEAKER_04:yeah yeah so is this for you a culmination of all of your studies
SPEAKER_00:it is definitely a culmination of all our studies and whatever we've learned for the last five years
SPEAKER_04:yeah right so um But I do know– and can we just swap out for Yuri right now? I'll just get– just introducing Yuri, who's also a part of the group. This man here answered the call online for another person to be part of it. Now, you're not a CCP student technically.
SPEAKER_02:No, I never was. I basically signed up– yeah, I found a school online and, yeah, went to Open Day. or a couple of open days, actually, and a few exhibitions. I think Gav put on an exhibition. I went to that. And, yeah, then he told me that the course runs every two years. And, yeah, so basically when it came up, I signed up, paid my money, and that was that. So I know you were wondering whether it was the money or whether it was the skill. I actually got a phone call because I read the fine print, and the fine print said you either had to have a diploma, which I didn't have, or you had to present a portfolio. So, yeah, I think after I paid my money, I think a month or so later, I got a phone call from Gavin and said, come in and show us your stuff. Okay. Okay, so you are a little suspicious. So that's what I did. So he didn't know me, and yeah. Yeah, I never studied at the school or anything like that, so yeah, so it was a bit of a new experience.
SPEAKER_04:So for you, Yuri, why photography? What photography is your art form?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I've been shooting for probably, oh, since I was 10 years old, so probably over 40 years, and doing it for quite a while. So the last probably five, six years, I sort of decided I'll start shooting, you know, trying to look at either exhibiting in a gallery or, you know, something like that. Basically, that's what I was looking at. So when it sort of came along, while the course was there, I thought rather than approach a gallery and, you know, go that way, you know, because I didn't have any experience with that sort of thing. So I thought, well, it sounds like, you know, pretty much a whole deal and, you know, you can learn everything You're kind of leaping off
SPEAKER_04:into this unknown of being an exhibiting artist with other people. And I'm just going to pivot now to Thomas, because Thomas, tell us, what brought you to being a part of the exhibition class? Is this a culmination of your studies?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely. So I'm a graduate from the CCP, and so I've been working as a commercial photographer as well. But exhibiting is something I'm really interested in and something I've wanted to do for a long time. And I've been part of... small group exhibits and various things, but I really wanted to work towards bigger group shows like this and solo exhibitions.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, excellent. John, can I just ask you to step into the mic, please? I just want to ask, John, because as I understand it, as a part of this exhibition class, a big focus is on the professionalism of being an artist. Now, this is not a lecture, tutorial type of environment. You're learning by doing as a part of this, is that right?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Yes, that's right. I mean, you really have to do it all yourself. You're not being spoon-fed it. But you're right, it's trying to put on a professional exhibition that is going to look good and slick and work and is efficient. And so it's quite an involved process. I mean, all the background work in planning, finding a venue, finding sponsors... finding the work to hang. That's
SPEAKER_04:another thing.
SPEAKER_08:That's another thing. And then making sure that it's all going to happen at a particular day in a particular way. And we're two weeks away from hanging the pieces and it's still full on. I mean, it's really very busy. Is your work ready to go? Absolutely all ready to go. It's come out of Atkins Lab a few weeks ago and looks beautiful. And so that That side of things is almost a minor part. But we also had to choose which works were going to work because Yuri's mentioned Gavin. Gavin is Gavin Blake, the director of the Centre for Creative Photography and one of the important things that he's really told us in the exhibition class is that it's not a best-of display. It's not the best of your work. You're trying to put on a series of work that hangs together in a coherent fashion. And then if you've succeeded with that with one person, you've then got to do that in a way with six different people presenting very, very different, diverse works, how they're going to hang together without shouting at each other. So... The sort of artistic background to selecting works and presenting works has been quite fascinating and not at all obvious or what I might have expected. I think most of us have had the experience of coming together and saying, look at this great picture, I'd like to exhibit it. And he said, no, it's not going to fit. It just doesn't– for these sorts of reasons. And he can articulate it really well. I mean, he's incredibly good.
SPEAKER_04:So he's playing curator for the group as well. Yes, he's really a–
SPEAKER_08:well, I mean, he's a– He's not a directive curator in the sense he doesn't tell you, but he will advise about what he thinks will fit better than other things. Oh, right. So it's very supportive. It's not like a schoolmist just telling you what to do. Yeah, yeah. It's a collaboration in some ways with a leader. Yeah, he's a facilitator.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Jeff, can I ask you to step in place with Thomas there? And I just wanted to ask that experience of... I mean, we all take pictures and we all get a shot and we're all like, yeah, I feel like the greatest photographer on earth today. And you know that lasts like two minutes until you see either someone else has done it or whatever. But this step, this idea of putting a show together doesn't involve the shots that perhaps you're the most proud of. How did that work for you? And getting together with this group of people, were you all like commenting on each other's work and you're all involved with that?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, we were. We shared our work and our ideas and we all gave feedback to each other. Through most of my studies at CCP, I've got more value out of that probably than the lecturing specifically because every class we spend most of it sharing work and talking about it within the themes of the subject that we're doing. So this exhibition class has been no different. The extra challenge we have in the exhibition class is that it's not just producing the images, it's then... It's the production of the final pieces of work, which is the printing and the framing. And that adds a whole extra dimension to it, which is a real challenge as well.
SPEAKER_04:Because the stuff has to fit together on the wall, doesn't it? And tell us about the space you've chosen. It's quite linear, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06:It's a big line. It is. It's a challenging space. And we've spent a fair bit of time... There's a group working together where we've actually tried to sequence in cutout form, but sequence where the works will go on the spaces that we have. So we got scale drawings of the gallery spaces, and then people started laying out their work to see how it would fit as a series. Mine in particular is not a direct order of images in the series, so they can be broken up. So I'm on two opposing parts of the wall. Others are on, like Thomas... And Paul are on single stretches of wall because their images kind of fit together.
SPEAKER_04:So that works for you to be in– I mean, the images are posing one another in a way. So as a viewer, that idea of doing a 180 spin to see Jess work, cool.
SPEAKER_06:Well, you're left scratching your head on one side, so you may as well turn around and scratch your head on the other. That's good. I like
SPEAKER_04:to hear
SPEAKER_06:that.
SPEAKER_04:That's excellent. Paul, can I just ask you to step in? Tell me, with your work, I've noticed that your focus has been you know on travel and landscape and and there's some really beautiful you know travel and scenery work but looking at other people's work I'm sort of saying okay where does your work fit and how do you feel it fits and I don't want to put you on the spot and make you feel awkward about it but how did how did that work within the group dynamic and choosing things
SPEAKER_07:um we went through that process as a group I mean I originally put up quite a varied bit of work, including some of the stuff that I shot in regards to still, again, travel photography, but mainly related to animals, bits and pieces, other sceneries, other countries. But it ended up boiling it down to a series just on Iceland, which it fits with the group only in that it is a sequence of events within it, which then fits around in the gallery itself, because we've obviously got things like John and his architectural... architectural work and we've got Jeff with his work it sits across from that which is they sort of balance each other out it's more about mine is I think mine is more fine art landscapes which is really what I want to get into and what I enjoy so I was deliberately putting up some stuff that I actually enjoy doing and getting back to the other points Yes, it's not my best work. I don't consider it my best work at all, but it's certainly a nice series and that's sort of where the balance is. So I do think it fits in with the other works based on the fact that all the works varied. But as you're probably walking down the hall, it will make a bit of sense that everything seems to fit. Yeah, yeah. Yes, and that's why we went through a whole lot of sequencing about which walls we're going to get, what's going to go on them. I mean, I ended up doing very large prints, which are restricted to about nine images, whereas some of the others are up to 12-plus images. That's a
SPEAKER_04:big show, though, when you think about it. Yeah, we've got... When you look at everybody, there's six of you, and you all have a significant physical presence there.
SPEAKER_07:Yes. Some of it, yes, definitely, definitely. So,
SPEAKER_04:yeah, looking forward to it. Excellent. Now, Alifia, can I get you back in front of the mic? Sure. How's– you're the– I'm just going to adjust your microphone a little bit. Tell me, you're the only female in this group of, you know, of men. How's it been working with this crowd? Has it fitted well with your work and with, you know, the curation side of it and what you intend to do? Because, you know, your work, like everybody's, is very unique in here. Your work is very commercial and, you know, very strong and colourful. How did you find that curation process and fitting in with the group?
SPEAKER_00:It was interesting. At first, it was daunting because I was very colorful and bright, and I've always loved to go that way. And everyone else's work is different from mine. Everyone in the group was very supportive, and I've enjoyed working with everyone. I've learned a lot through being in a group as well. I love... experimenting a lot. So for me, everything is a new adventure, a new experiment. When I first came into the group, I was thinking of doing landscape photography. And then it was like, no, I probably, when Gavin sort of suggested why don't i do my fruit photography which i had left aside for a very long time so i started back studio making a mess um my images were my garage was filled with water at the end of the day and my husband was almost yeah what is going on um my son was also quite enjoying it and he was like yes mommy go splash some fruit and water and it was fun so i've made a mess and i've enjoyed the process of doing that and it's all about color and fun
SPEAKER_04:it is really dynamic your work and it does stand out where you know a lot of the work is it's very considered and and sort of quiet yours is so sort of loud and strong so where do you where does your work sit physically in the show does it Does it end cap it or is it the beginning or where does it sit for a person walking through it?
SPEAKER_00:My images are towards the end of the show. So it's near John's architectural work and Yuri's work sculptures. So it's towards the end because, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, well, I think it would be incredibly strong. It would sort of lead people and show them– There is a variety, but I can see by what you put on the website, and I'm going to send the website as a part of the podcast. You'll see it in the show notes. People will be able to check out a small part of the work. But it sounds to me that you're actually going to have to stand and see the show to really get a feel for all the effort and the work that you guys have put in. John, can I get back to you again, please, if you don't mind? What brings you to architectural photography when you've got to– background in medicine and was it something just to get out of that world and become an observer you know get out of the world of being a professional medico to to um
SPEAKER_08:it really started from travel photography I mean I um as my kids got older I was able to travel more or travel stop and you know you take pictures of interesting places you've been and I ended up realising that I was just taking formal architectural pictures without having really thought about it. You're setting things up on a tripod, you're trying to get upright verticals, you're finding the right time of day or night, because a lot of my pictures are night pictures. And I don't know why. And at the same time, my wife is very sort of interested in architecture in an amateur sort of way. And so we ended up sort of being architectural groupies and looking at famous buildings and famous architects around the world. Although, in fact, that sort of thing isn't well represented in this particular series of works. Again, it's not so much the building, it's the photo. The photo has to be the final interesting point. And I don't always like all of the buildings, but I like the photos, so that's important. But why architecture? I'm not quite sure. Well,
SPEAKER_04:contemporary art's your thing as well, and modern art, because you and I have done... art appreciation for photographers together. At
SPEAKER_08:CCP,
SPEAKER_04:yes. Yeah, and you've got a great understanding of where the art world has moved through and yet this is not really represented in this work.
SPEAKER_08:No, but I mean, so art movements and I mean, I've been going to art galleries since I was a teenager, so art and art movements and with that, I mean, I'm interested in history as well, so that ties in, and then architecture as a part of art movements. It all plays off on each other quite well. When I first came to this group, I wanted to put on a series of surrealistic self-portraits that I had been working on for some years with the Centre for Creative Photography when I did my diploma. And we just sort of moved away from that. I think my wife was particularly keen to show my architectural pictures. But she was right. She doesn't like… architectural stuff works better.
SPEAKER_04:Interesting, yeah. I was thinking about that. I had no idea that was one of the things you were considering because I've not seen any of that of your work. And I know all of you as part of being a part of the show, have you been bouncing off to other websites as a part of the link so people can find out more about your work?
SPEAKER_08:There are some links to our websites. Yeah. Yes, is the
SPEAKER_04:short answer. Well, I hope that's in there at any rate because I think us talking about that, I think it would be valuable to. Thomas, can I ask you to step back in, please? Yeah, yeah. Just looking at your work, I think yours is perhaps a more traditional, as far as the work that's been showing, more traditional photographic artist work with the sort of observational aspect look at interesting shapes and places and you've got this beautiful shot of the mangroves and this single lone mangrove in there. And they kind of work off each other too that you're showing on there. That's more of the aesthetic that I'm used to with contemporary art. What brings you to showing that work in this body? Did that fit well or was it stuff you're trying to get out?
SPEAKER_01:So I knew that I wanted to do something new for this group. So... when other people started bringing in their work I had a few possibilities in mind but when I sort of saw what other people were doing I had this St Kilda where this series shot it is something I've been wanting to come back and photograph for ages after I went there first a few years ago and shot some black and white film so that's been in the back of my mind for a while now so I thought that might work really well with this group so yeah over a few months after we started this class over a few months I went out there and started shooting
SPEAKER_04:Because the mangroves are really contentious at the moment where they're really suffering from development. Yeah. And I think it's a good subject. Politically, it's a good subject to talk
SPEAKER_01:about. Yes, I didn't know that at the time. I didn't actually, I wasn't aware. I had been to the mudflats out there and really the lone mangroves and those enormous vast expanses out there was what I had in mind. And that's where I started this series over a few days shooting out there. And then the shots within the mangroves which is the second half of the series, was the latter work and the bits I did later on. I didn't actually realise that they were suffering the way they are. So if anyone's not aware, yeah, the mangroves at St Kilda are starting to die. On the salt pan side of them are looking really bad until about halfway through when you get to the ocean side.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, right. Well, I mean, the idea of these solitary figures and it's going to be an interesting show to see how that worked works in there because i think there's a lot i i mean i'm again uh i haven't seen the show i'm looking forward to going to see it and and see it laid out because this is the part of the game you've designed a full long play record of songs that one's meant to be listened to after the other we're not supposed to view them in this sort of in sort of this web world well look can i have a a quick chat with jeff about his work because i'm kind of curious about What's behind your work? Because you've been at the CCP for a long time.
SPEAKER_06:I started in 2015.
SPEAKER_04:That's long enough.
SPEAKER_06:Yep. Had a bit of a break and it's like Hotel California. Once you're in there, you just go. Actually, it really is, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04:It is. People never leave.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. I hope I don't get you any copyright issues with mentioning the name of the song. I was also going to play the song, I think, is the only issue. But my... My career is as a geologist. That's what I am by trade. And I've been taking photos most of my life. And in geology, I spend a lot of time looking at satellite images and aerial photography. And a lot of it's pattern recognition and matching. And then taking photos with a camera for geology, you're looking at rock specimens and outcrops. So you're up close. And you're seeing the same patterns that you see at a satellite level. So this series is really exploring that repeating patterns. So within the triptychs, most of them have one element of the triptych is a satellite image matched up with photos that I've taken. So the scale, and I've deliberately taken the colour out and tried to remove any clear indications of scale so that... the viewer doesn't really get a sense of what this actually is. It's just looking at the patterns and the similarities.
SPEAKER_04:Very much abstracts, aren't they? Gavin's definition of abstract has always said to me, if you can't tell what it is, it's an abstract. And some of this you look at, oh yeah, that's a wave. No, no, no, it's not a wave.
SPEAKER_06:And I've titled them specifically to kind of lead the viewer in a direction, but I'm in no way explaining what it is. It's up to the viewer to make up. their own mind.
SPEAKER_04:So your artist statement will be hinting as to what you're thinking about here.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, it is. But even that's still not clearly, it's not descriptive of the images. One of the things I've learnt studying at the Centre for Creative Photography, which I've really enjoyed, is the focus in a lot of the subjects on using photography to communicate a concept. So it's really coming up with an idea and then coming up with images that you can then use to try and convey that. And that's what I've been working on here.
SPEAKER_04:Excellent. Excellent. Paul, can I ask you to come forward again, please? Geoff just brought up artist statements. Yes. And I know for a lot of the world it's quite a contentious thing thing, artist statements, as to people jam them with fluff and words that make it hard to work. But how do you feel, because part of this course was the professionalism of being an artist and expressing your intention is really a part of what that's all about. How did you find that aspect of it and did writing artist statements come naturally to you?
SPEAKER_07:No, definitely not. Artist statements never came naturally to me only because Yeah, writing English, writing for me is quite a– yeah, I'm just not good at it. I'll put it that way. It's not part of me. My background is finance accounting. The reason I went down that track is because my English was quite poor at school. That's the black and white of it. But I found that doing an artist statement for this particular exhibition– It sort of flowed quite well because it was about the fact of where these photos had come from, what they were about, what I experienced. So it fairly well flowed for me getting it out. So I was quite pleased with the outcome. But yes, artist statements are very interesting things. The beautiful thing about school is that all through the courses you tend to have to write artist statements on different aspects of what you're doing, and it does bring it out. Eventually it comes out and you get better at it. So I'm very pleased about that. Yes, yes, okay.
SPEAKER_04:Excellent. Good answer. Yuri, can I grab you on the similar sort of thing? Because you're not a long-term CCP
SPEAKER_02:student. No, I had no experience in artist statements.
SPEAKER_04:So tell me, what did it mean to you when you were looking at artist statements?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I mean, basically I was put down, you know, what– you know, what I thought of, you know, where I was going with it. But, yeah, I had no idea really. I looked at a few websites and had a look at what other people had written and I thought, well, I'm not doing that. So, yeah, I put something together and then Gavin tied it up for me. So, yeah, it's something I need a lot more practice at for
SPEAKER_04:sure. But did you feel like– like I think Paul did a great job of talking about this idea that you're just– saying why you're in the show and what you did as part of the process and what you're thinking was. I think we are taught or we believe by reading artist statements And anywhere else, these have got to be big, convoluted
SPEAKER_02:things. Yeah, when you read a lot of stuff on the internet, it's sort of meaningless. Yeah, I think it's there to make people impressed by your ability to use big words. Exactly. So tell us about your work, because
SPEAKER_04:for this show, you've included some work where you've photographed public sculptures.
SPEAKER_02:That's right, yeah. It's a project I've been working on for a few years, ever since they started putting them up there. I think every January, February, down at Brighton Beach, they put on a sculpture exhibition. It runs probably for about 10 days or nearly two weeks. I think it's been going for probably about four years, I think, that I've been aware of it. Every time I go there, I'll go and photograph it. When it started, there wasn't any real intent to do anything with it. But, yeah, ended up putting, you know, having a series of photos. And when I saw Gavin, that was one of the series that I had. So that was sort of one of the options, like we're talking about options, you know, what you're going to hang, you know, what sort of photos you're going to look at. And I had a few, I mean, these are just done in black and white. So, yeah, a lot of this stuff, yeah, all this stuff was shot on film. But I do a lot of digital stuff as well. So I had a whole series of bike shots from Tour d'Ananda. So there's a whole series of shots there. And they were sort of quite colourful and that sort of thing. But Gavin sort of looked at those and said, yeah, that's all good. He didn't say much, and he said, oh, we'll go with those. Well, I think they're quite graphic, and I think in many ways
SPEAKER_04:they do sit in well. And I know on the website they're hanging right below Alephia's fruit space. That's right, yeah, total contrast. It really is because of the colour of the black and white, but still there's a lot of shapes and forms and that sort of stuff that works really well
SPEAKER_02:with it. Yeah, there's a lot going on. And basically with them, the idea is that you're chasing down– you're trying to find an interaction that people are having with a sculpture. So you try and find a spot that's got a good background or a sculpture that's sitting in the right spot, if you like. And then you look for things to happen, especially when there's an exhibition on like that. There's a lot of people everywhere and there's stuff going on all the time. So you just wait for things to happen and then then just hit the button when it does, and sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I can see. But it is important, I think, with sort of work, photographs of public art, that you see the public around the art. Oh, it makes a photo. Whereas John's work, which is related to buildings and that, you don't always want people involved in the conversation, unless it's for an architect to show how this building's going to be used.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's right. These aren't documents of sculptures for the artist to show the sculpture off. This is more... more to do with the interaction of people with a sculpture and the surrounding that it's been put in. So that's really the idea behind it. That's what I was going for. Excellent. You try and find a good composition and hopefully someone walks into the right spot where it makes sense. It certainly has
SPEAKER_04:a bit of a feel of street photography as well where you've positioned
SPEAKER_02:figures. It is, yeah. The whole thing is street photography really. Yeah. whatever that is.
SPEAKER_04:Well, by the definition of Henry Cartier-Bresson, well, no, there really isn't a problem. He's one of my favourites. I think he's everybody's, isn't he? Everybody's favourite. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Thanks, Alifia. Can I have you back on deck again? Lovely. I'm really curious about, like, five years at the Centre for Creative Photography...
SPEAKER_05:Five?
SPEAKER_04:Yes. What are you trying to do at the end of it? Like, what's your objective? Now, I figure this is what I'm going to ask everybody. Where are you going with your work and what do you want to do with your work? And because your name starts with an A, I'm going to ask you first. Tell me, what's your– because your work is strong and you've clearly got a huge range of skills that you've picked up over the years. What are you hoping to do? So,
SPEAKER_00:I actually came across the Centre of Creative Photography while I was working. volunteering with the RSA. So I was volunteering at the Soldiers Memorial Unley and I met some one of the artists at the RSA was also part of the Center for Creative Photography and he recommended it a lot that this is the best place to go. I was just looking for a job at that time I had just moved to Adelaide in graphic design so which is completely and they're all related. It's not
SPEAKER_04:actually they're related. Yeah everything is related. Composition and
SPEAKER_00:yeah They all come together. Because I love art, I love graphics, and I love photography. It's something I can't leave any of them out. And they all sort of help me doing what I want to do. And when I was with the Royal Society, I love exhibiting with them as well. So that gave me the confidence. When I sold an artwork at the Royal Society, that gave me the confidence that, yeah, I want to do this, I want to exhibit more, and I want to have my own exhibition one day. So that's how I ended up being part of this group. And at the end of it, I want to do something where I can use photography, graphic design and art and that's what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it sounds like you could be completely self-employed and be really helpful to whomever wants your services in that respect because there's such a crossover in all those. And do you find yourself getting involved with photo illustration as well in Photoshop and changing images afterwards?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I do a lot of Photoshop. Each image has been about 40 hours of work.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, really?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:How many images?
SPEAKER_00:There are six images, so yeah, that's the reason.
SPEAKER_04:That's enough, isn't it? That's why you haven't done 12.
SPEAKER_00:No, I was aiming to do 12. I do have a few of the images which I just never went around editing because each image was just sort I'm consuming by itself
SPEAKER_05:yeah yeah
SPEAKER_00:and that was um I must have edited re-edited every time I open the image I'm sure I'll find something that I could remove and put in so it's never you've got to stop you've got to know how to stop exactly I needed to stop and I think I was like um red eyes dark dark circles and my husband was like you need to stop now just just stop just just go print your images that's it done so yeah I think he just put an end to it
SPEAKER_04:I think that's uh You know, you ask a painter what's one of the hardest things. They don't like a blank canvas and they don't like having to stop. You know, that knowing when you've done enough, when can you walk away. And that beautiful image in the movie about William Turner where he puts the little bit of a dab of paint and then walks away. Like, that's a master. None of us really know how to stop with that. And, I mean, your images are very complete and, you know, well, the ones you're showing in the show. And so you've obviously got to– in you to know when's enough and when's the time to walk away. Not just your husband telling you, but too much.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's there. I think a lot of it is also because I like doing art as well, acrylics, mixed media. So all of that comes together and you know when to stop. And I guess a lot of it was also taking opinions from other people. G was really good and helpful with that as well. I kept asking her and going like, am I crazy or is this enough? She's great. We're
SPEAKER_04:talking about G Greenslade, who's one of the lecturers there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, she's really good and she was really helpful with the whole process as well because her skills are amazing. So yeah, it was really good when she would tell me that, oh no, you've missed. And then it was like, you know, when the image is perfect and she finds mistakes with it, it's like, oh no. She can find, mistakes with it but you
SPEAKER_04:didn't at the end it was
SPEAKER_00:like that's enough she's like no it's good it's good it's really good
SPEAKER_04:she knows when to not make you so crazy
SPEAKER_00:yes totally
SPEAKER_04:totally thank you thank you very much thomas i'm gonna uh i just want to ask you about what where are you headed and what's your tell me about your work and and where you want to be in a few years
SPEAKER_01:right um so previously uh while i was studying i worked as a commercial photographer mostly doing architectural and editorial photography and I really decided that Ideally, what I'd like to be doing is showing my own work and working on my own projects. And so, yeah, I'm trying to work towards that, showing work. So I've got this. And in August for Siler, I've got another exhibition. I'm going to do my first solo show. So that's the next thing to work towards after this.
SPEAKER_04:Wow, that's tight. I mean, Gavin says he does this every two years, right? We know why he does it every two years because it's like– I wouldn't say it's hurting cats because they'll be putting you guys down as being grunchy cats. But it is a tough gig, isn't it, to put together. So have you got a good feel for it? What are you going to be doing
SPEAKER_01:for Sala? Yeah, yeah, and most of the work's done. It's not going to be quite as intense as this, I don't think. It's a bit of a smaller– it's at the Light Gallery, so at the Centre for Creative Photography, so it'll be a bit smaller and hopefully a little bit more laid back. But this has been great preparation, you know, going to this extent and exploring all this. It's
SPEAKER_04:pretty extreme when you think about it. It's unusual to have to have six people's work that would fit together because the intention is not to do– best greatest hits
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah that was harmonious um one of the you know trying to organize a exhibition at outside of a gallery as well where we're having to organize so much of the space ourselves which would normally be organized by a gallery is a you know a huge learning curve as well
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Well, good luck with Sala. I'll put a link in the show notes to the Sala Festival. That's the South Australian Living Artists Festival. And there's also, I'll just remind you and anyone who's listening, if you have got a Sala show, there is a Sala prize for photography that typically happens every year. Make sure you apply for it. You don't automatically get included in it. And what happens as a part of it, I've got a team of people. We go around and we see the applicants' shows and we then award prizes. first run-up, second run-up, and first prize for it. And then it gets presented at the Sala Awards evening, which neither here nor there, but what it actually does do is because the assessment's done, it draws people to the shows because Sala are a bit like the head-on festival in the Ballarat International Photo Biennale. It's so big you don't know where to go. You don't know where to start and where to go. So it'd be great to see a show that's a part of that and entered in the competition. It'd be nice to have someone win whose work I actually like. Because it's just not me. Because I have other people that judge with me and I'm like a third wheel of a thing. I'm like, come on, guys. We know him and his work's great. No, I just don't like it. It's not good enough. Yes, I won't tell you the other judges are there. Thanks, Thomas. Jeff, do you want to tell me what's up for you? I mean, geology is… You're going to be looking at core samples for the rest of your life, is that correct?
SPEAKER_06:Well, it's more looking at other people's reports and trying to work out what they've written in the work that I do. But for me, photography, I finished work with a company which had been for almost 20 years in 2015, so I had a year off and that's what I thought I'd go explore photography. I thought at the time I'd just do one subject just to get a bit of formal training in how to drive the camera. And here I am, still learning. But to me, photography in the future, I like the art side of it. So it's more looking at continuing to be an artist while probably having a day job, doing more geology-related stuff. But as I head towards retirement, it'll be having the photography become more of my focus in life. So yeah, it just opened up my mind.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think the way you're looking at it is, you know, it's a good way to be. I think it's a tough thing that if that's what you want to be your living and your income, I think as a geologist you'd be paid better than most photographers would do anyway. You know, one of the jobs that we used to do here was we used to get– there's a company called Challenger that would photograph the core samples in half on– medium format film and we had to print and they had to bring the core samples in and we had to match the prints to the core samples which then went to people like yourself who were looking at the samples and I was looking at our prints which I thought they were alright but you look at the core and they're very different things and they fluoresce differently in different lights and they have a smell to them and I'm thinking I would never want to assess a sample by just looking at some sort of an image, but it was something that was very common. Is that still done these days?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, very much. The last job I had, I spent a lot of time taking photos of core so that we could look at it in the office, but that's always matched with somebody actually in the field holding it, writing notes and descriptions of it. But one thing geology has always given me is it's gotten me to many interesting locations to take photos.
SPEAKER_04:Places other people don't get to see.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, so I make the most of that. Always got a camera with me.
SPEAKER_04:That's exciting. It is. Paul, can I ask you to come forward, please? So tell me, what's up for you? Like, you can't travel at the moment because of the pandemic. And then travel photography is your thing. So what are you seeing for
SPEAKER_07:yourself? Well, this is it. Look, I'm still looking at travel photography in that the thing I love at the moment is– This is obviously the culmination of all my work, this exhibition, in that it will finish my diploma with the school. And just for the record, it's 10 years for me, on and off, mainly through work and travel. Are you the longest? I must be close. In this group? I'm very close, yes. So, yeah, it's about 10 years for me. And, yeah, my story started way back then in that I was– because I'm into hiking and travel. I hiked the Milford Track in New Zealand with a film camera. That was my first film camera in quite a few years. And didn't like the images at all when I got back. And then my second big hike was Machu Picchu, which was my first digital camera. And I came back from that pretty disillusioned at my attempts as well. And that's what got me started at the centre. Okay. So literally for 10 years on and off, I've been going to the Centre for Creative Photography, covering all the subjects, working my way to a diploma. And the whole end goal has always been to actually get better at travel photography, landscape photography. I really want to get into fine art photography. So... Fine art landscapes. So, yes, I'm now at that point where I look at my work and I look at what it was like, say, eight years ago and compare it to what I've done in the last few years pre-COVID. Yeah. And it's chalk and cheese. It's absolute chalk and cheese. I think the school's done a remarkable job of opening my mind as to it's not about the technical side. This is about just actually using your brain a bit better. And I found it absolutely amazing. So, for me, going forward is still definitely about landscapes. But I think it'll be more either on 120 film or even very large digital, medium format digital. And hopefully– look, let's start at the beginning. Tasmania, maybe in August when it's nice and cold and snowy. Then who knows? When New Zealand opens, we'll go there. And then as the world opens, I'll get back into it. How do you find–
SPEAKER_04:you're travelling by yourself. Yes. That's– I mean, my biggest struggle if I'm travelling is– Time of day is one of the biggest things with photography. It's so hard to get. And if you're traveling with someone else or any other party group of people, it's very hard to drag them into the environments that you want
SPEAKER_07:to be in to get that picture. That's correct. Normally I'll do two things. To be honest, I do it two ways. One, I'll tag onto a tour. Like I remember doing Laos and I tagged on a tour, had a good look at Laos. I got back to the capital. Then I just organized a driver. which didn't cost a lot, and a car, and that was it for the next week. It was let's go for a drive, and I picked out all the places I want to go back to, and then I spent the time and just waited and waited until I got the right light and the right location and just took the shots. The same with Japan. I did a very similar thing in Japan. China, I got in a lot of trouble because I ended up going– I had a driver. I only had to drive me and a car, and we went through three provinces heading up the Great Wall of China. That was in February, middle of winter, which no one does. And I must have got– security checked at least three times just going up and three times coming back. So unusual seeing someone. Unusual. Unusual seeing someone there and it was quite remote. Yeah. So, and I enjoy it. I mean, it's part of it. The fact that I do travel alone, it's part of it. I've got a few friends that'll travel with me and they'll put up with me carrying a bit of camera gear. But I tend to lug a big camera on my back and do a few trials. Yeah, yeah. Well, if you're getting into
SPEAKER_04:film with that
SPEAKER_07:work, like that's always... That'll be even more... Yeah, let's get real. That's me pitching high. Let's keep with digital for a while, but my plan is to... to eventually get some good old-fashioned...
SPEAKER_04:Well, a lot of film people would say it's probably a little easier. The gear can be lighter. But then you've got to deal with films
SPEAKER_07:in and out of X-ray. Correct. That's the problem. It's processing the film. It's not knowing whether you've got the shot. I mean, you've just hiked up a mountain. You're taking 12 photos. Isn't that the Zen thing of it, though? It is. Where you go, what if it's meant to be? Yeah, that's exactly right. So it's a bit daunting, but that's my plan. So at the moment, I've still got stars in my eyes. I still want to continue down that track.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. That's wonderful. It's great to hear. John, I'm going to ask you next. And just remind me, if I missed anyone in my conversation, I'm doing a reasonably good job of balancing people. All right, good. John, tell us, what are you doing next? You're not going back into pathology, I don't think.
SPEAKER_08:No, I mean, photography, I'm an amateur. I've always been an amateur, but I'm one of those
SPEAKER_04:people. For the love, that's what it means, isn't it? Yeah, I'm one
SPEAKER_08:of those people that likes to do something well if I'm going to do it. I mean, I have done a few paid things like some weddings and some commissioned portrait work. What did you do a wedding for? I've done second shooter at two weddings and never again. That's so hard, isn't it? It's very hard, yeah. But I sort of got... When I started doing photography, I started developing and printing films when I was a teenager in the 70s and I was a histopathologist, which means I'm looking down the microscope all the time, which is a very visual thing. You try to look at shapes and patterns and things to diagnose disease. So there was a visual part to that. But, you know, career and children got in the way of photography until digital came along in the 2000s and I started to get back into it in a big way. and thought, I'm enjoying this so much, I'll go to the CCP. I was very suspicious of the CCP. As we all should be in the first place. Look, they can get stuck there for 10 years. What are these people doing? They're subversives there. And, you know, again, I'm like Paul. I've been there for so long. I did finish the diploma two or three years ago. I stretched that out over a long time. But you just keep going back. And... The photos that I'm taking now are just so different and frankly better than the ones I was doing 10 or 20 years ago. And that's very gratifying. That's fascinating to look at. You know, the pictures you thought were so good 15 years ago. In fact, the pictures I'm doing in the exhibition cover a big time span. The oldest were taken in 2006. The most recent were taken in... 2019. But I've reprocessed them all, the whole lot, and made them much better than the ones I've had sitting on file for 15 years. And that has also been an interesting comparison. You say, look at the one I got in 2021 and the one I did in 2006. And It's amazing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_08:Because I'm also a big Photoshop user. I mean, you learn– well, as I've said before, I do these composites and surrealistic stuff and so you get very, very good at Photoshop. And one of the subjects I did at CCP was an internship in digital retouching with Chris Holmes. Oh, fabulous. And we did retouching architectural photographs for a noted local architectural photographer and And so the Photoshop side of it is another layer of enjoyment and, frankly, passion and interest because it's such a big world and you think you're pretty good, but there's always much more to learn.
SPEAKER_04:And it's what you're going to be doing with those images. It's fine if it's a small thing rendered on screen, but the chance that it may end up being a billboard image... And then where you've mucked up a little bit of something and there's a leg where it's not meant to be or something like that, suddenly it's– that's a really big challenge. It's not– I mean, I know– The world's almost divided between people who like doing Photoshop and people that don't.
SPEAKER_08:Well, in the film days, it was the argument between whether you took slides and didn't do anything with them or whether you took black and white and then you could process them and dodge and burn and all that sort of stuff. And it's a bit like that with digital. Do you take JPEGs and never touch them again or do you really work up your raw files? And architectural pictures, surprisingly, although they're often quite static and you're just interested in the building, they... often take an awful lot of retouching. There's an awful lot of cleaning up and straightening and colour correction and shadow highlight stuff. I mean, there's endless Photoshop work in every architectural picture.
SPEAKER_04:And I think it's a big part of being a professional photographer these days is having that because I think it's just expected. that you'll solve some of these problems with those sorts of tools. And I don't think, you know, sometimes judgment's applied to it, but it's just another set of techniques. And like you mentioned, you did an internship at someone who did retouching for a prominent architectural photographer. That architectural photographer doesn't have to learn Photoshop. There are people out there that can help. They'll do it for them. Yeah, precisely. And sort it out.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, that's great. So are you intending to continue and chase the surrealism and exhibit that work or are you just going to keep going back to the CCP and outlive us all? What's the story? I
SPEAKER_08:don't know. I don't know. Are you the oldest student on record? I just enjoy it and I don't really know. I had this exhibition thing on my radar for some time. I was sort of pegged with Gavin to do the last lot two years ago. Oh, yes, in Harvest. But it was all a bit too hard back then. then and I don't know things keep coming up and I just I keep saying goodbye to them at the CCP and I keep propping up again another year or two like we did last year was it this year or last year last year for the art appreciation for photographers who knows
SPEAKER_04:I know what you mean But,
SPEAKER_08:you know, when you start at the CCP, you show the pictures that you've got or that you take and you think they're pretty good. And then you gradually learn through their very supportive mentoring that they've got to be more professional. They're really expecting you to come up with a professional result. And it takes a few years until finally you're churning out the stuff that's that's actually professional quality and yeah it's
SPEAKER_04:it's fabulous it's really um i find there's a it really bothers me but and i'm not sure whether it's because the years i've spent involved with the australian institute of professional photography but there's a sense that there's professionals and then there's amateurs and i'm indicating a step down but there are so many amateurs that are so much better than some professionals because they're doing it because they love it and i think that when you start to turn to have to make money from it, it makes it so much harder to sort of pull the time into it that perhaps is needed to get to that level that you'd really want to do. And I'm always laughing, the chap who works here, Tony Cairney, his business card says amateur photographer, but he got a commission to photograph Jack Thompson. He has a portrait methodology. He calls it the three-minute portrait or two minutes, and he uses three frames, black and white, square format Hasselblad. He takes three pictures of that person. I said, well, don't you need to sit down and get to know the person before you photograph? He said, no, no. He said, I just, it's what I feel at the time. And so he's got, you know, and they were, he was booked by Jeff Thompson to be photographed, self-portrait, a photo of himself. And based on that, so amateurs, you know, they can run the world. It's wonderful. Wonderful. I've got a question for Geoff here because you said something a little bit earlier, and I know we're sort of doing this wrap-up because we're getting close to our hour, but you said the collaboration and coming to school and working with a group and sharing the images, I can't remember your exact words, but you brought it up, and I just wanted to ask you, did you have a feel for, you know, what happened last year with the pandemic and everything was done online and Zoom and all that sort of stuff? Were you involved with any subjects last year at the CCP? How did you find it went? I don't know anyone who thought it was better sitting on Zoom running a class. How did you find it and how did it work?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I was studying all through that. So suddenly the classes went to online. We were doing Zoom calls. I wouldn't say it was better. It was still good and it was different. The interesting thing was, one, you get these little insights into everybody's– room in the house, wherever they set up their Zoom. But in some ways, it was more intimate looking at other people's work because we were looking at it on the screen. So everybody was seeing it at the same size and up close. When we do it in the classroom, we have the photos spread out on the big table and we're all standing around looking and we're walking around. So when we're doing the Zoom calls, because we were still sharing work, it was whoever was showing their work had control of the screen. They were putting their images up and everyone was looking at them. We're all looking at it from exactly the same perspective, looking at it on a monitor. So it was really interesting in that way. And the discussion I found was still, it was just as lively and just as engaging. That's great.
SPEAKER_04:It's great. I know it's a challenge. And I just hadn't really been through it myself because John and I were lucky. We skipped that opening of the pandemic, the closing down, everything kind of finished when our class finished. And we had one online. Yeah, that's right. We did have one online. But I was concerned that the camaraderie, because you guys have been able to operate together, haven't you, as far as putting this class together? Yeah. Yep. And so you really didn't have to go through that for this group. And I think the idea of– did you go through a process of laying things physically out and then shuffling them around? Was that a part of the process?
SPEAKER_06:There was a little bit of that, yeah. And Gavin still found ways to get in there and shuffle them around and provide feedback and align things. So it was really good. Probably the one benefit I had is the– I was kind of– and I think Paul was in some of the classes. We were a group that would– we were kind of together for a few classes, so we'd all gotten to know each other, which was really useful. But, yeah, I think the Zoom thing worked well, and I know I've talked to Gavin, and I think CCP were pretty impressed, and it kind of forced them into a
SPEAKER_04:new way of working. Yeah, that was very impressive, and I think G had a lot to do with that. I think Gavin had been– nibbling around the edges of doing it, but didn't really want to commit because I think he, like I, has expressed the fear that it wouldn't work as well and wouldn't have the sense of community and that it wouldn't keep people coming back after 10 years, which is what, you know, I think it's one of the real joys of the place, that people do bounce back, which is quite remarkable. All right, well, that's close to our hour, but what I might do, can I get Thomas on, please? Can you just remind us all, Thomas, of the opening... Dates? Have you got that in your
SPEAKER_01:head? Sorry, I
SPEAKER_04:should have warned you about this.
SPEAKER_01:That's the 12th of April at the National Wine Centre.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so the National Wine Centre is a gallery space that's part of the University of Adelaide, isn't it? I believe
SPEAKER_01:so, yeah. So, yeah, we'll occupy the hallways on the bottom floor and the upper floor for April and May, pretty much.
SPEAKER_04:Excellent. Well, I'd encourage everyone to get along and see this writ large. Hang on.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yes, yes. Make sure you book ahead if you're going to come.
SPEAKER_04:Are people allowed to come to the opening still?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, we've got some spaces, John. Yes, we still have some spaces left. Well, that's
SPEAKER_04:definitely the time to see it, I think. Well, in fact, getting to see it without people around would be helpful, but also getting to meet you all. Do both. In one place. Do both. That's it. So the Eventbrite tickets are up, and so we'll have a link to the website and the booking for the opening.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. It's free, yeah. but you just have to book ahead because of our COVID restriction numbers, but it is free.
SPEAKER_04:It's free, and there's going to be wine? Yes. And there's going to be nibbles? Yes. Wow, that's going to be great. It's going to be fantastic. So is there anything I missed? Does anyone want to volunteer anything? Step up to the mic if anyone wants to bring anything up. Well, I'll express my impressiveness for what you guys have... Impression? Impressiveness? Sure. It's amazing. I don't know... I haven't seen it so I should hold my judgment perhaps. But I think it's a wonderful exercise in relationship building and a wonderful exercise in storytelling and understanding how pictures can go together. And it's also very brave. Having an exhibition, it's brave but it makes it a lot easier when you're all together And you can effectively jump off that little cliff together holding hands and then deal with it. And especially with a shaman like Gavin who's done a lot of exhibitions and knows what goes wrong. So best of luck. Thank you. And we'll see you on the other side. Right. Non... Non... But you were talking about burgerings being non-fungible and I suggested that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I don't understand what fungible means.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it's simple.
SPEAKER_03:I get the NFT, I'm all over it, but what's this fungible bullshit?
SPEAKER_04:Well, that's the middle word of the NFT. That's the F in the NFT.
SPEAKER_03:I am aware of that. I know what the middle is.
SPEAKER_04:We all know what a good F is.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, Paul.
SPEAKER_04:You're
SPEAKER_03:a fucking idiot.
SPEAKER_04:So fungible, money,
SPEAKER_03:dollars,
SPEAKER_04:notes. No, there is fun involved.
SPEAKER_03:No, a sponge.
SPEAKER_04:There's no sponge. It's not spungible.
SPEAKER_03:Funge. It's got the j. Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:it's got the j sound. Money is fungible. In other words, you can say this dollar coin, because we're in Australia, or$50 note. Every country seems as a 50 of something, right? 50 euro, whatever. This is worth 50 things, right? And it could be 50 of anything. It's got a certain value to it. And that is the fungibility of it. It is interchangeable and it's a recognised value. Everyone knows what it is and it can buy. It's an intermediary between goods. So you go, rather than being paid in potatoes, a bag of potatoes, you get paid money which you go and then buy a bag of potatoes with. That money is the fungible. It's not because it's– fungible doesn't mean middleman. It just means it is a known, recognised, consistent value. So why is it non-fungible? Well, a non-fungible token– see, a Bitcoin is a fungible token. It's like money. It's a dollar. Whereas a non-fungible token is like a– A thing that has value but isn't like money. An item that is unique and has a unique value. So
SPEAKER_03:like I had a bunch of that shit, like my antiques and my vintage. Correct.
SPEAKER_04:Well, there might be three of the same kind of marbled Bakelite thing.
SPEAKER_05:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:But each one is still on its own, and therefore you would say it's a non-fungible because they're not being mass-produced anymore. And whether a photographic print is fungible or non-fungible really depends on how the artist wants to release them. Is it a one-off thing? So the whole world has gone blah, blah, blah about non-fungible tokens, and part of the issue is gambling's involved, that people think this is the new way to make money quickly. It's a way of... Because people have just made a heap of money.
SPEAKER_03:People make a heap of money about bullshit all day long.
SPEAKER_04:Well, that's right. The first person
SPEAKER_03:to make some bullshit made some money on that bullshit. Went, hey, put this in the ground, your bloody crops will grow. Now there's a million dollar business around it. It was
SPEAKER_04:Beeple's sale of his artwork for$67 million.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but there were people making money before that.
SPEAKER_04:Non-fungible tokens are only a few years old.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I know, but what I'm saying is that it's a bubble. It's not a bubble. Well, it's not a bubble because Bitcoin wasn't a bubble. It's a new thing.
SPEAKER_04:It's a new way
SPEAKER_03:of… Well, we don't know what Bitcoin's going to be in a minute.
SPEAKER_04:No, no, all it is, it's a new way of assigning… Forget, let's leave Bitcoin out of the conversation because it is a totally different thing and it confuses the issue a lot. You know, Bitcoin is a new currency and there are aspects of it that it's shared with… what we're talking about today, NFTs. But it's a different thing. So let's leave it out as confusing the issue because people don't understand Bitcoin. I don't understand Bitcoin. I mean, I got it. I do understand it to a point, but the value of it is hard to understand. Let's talk about non-fungible tokens, right? At the very core of it, it is just a way of assigning ownership to a bit of digital data. That's all it is. And it's using the... Bitcoin ledger system, not Bitcoin, the internet ledger system called blockchain, which all that is is a shared database or series of databases, series of repositories of information, tables, Excel spreadsheets, whatever you want to, in your brain picture it is, that cannot be destroyed. that is shared around so everybody knows what's on this database and there's no way of hacking it. It's just the database. And all it's doing is pointing to that bit of digital data. And so that ledger can say who created it, who owned it, what's its value, where's it located at, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it can actually point to a thing you might own. Let's say your pair of glasses that you happen to like and are bent in a certain way, you could register it with a non-fungible token as an object of its own. It doesn't have to be a bit of digital data. It can actually point to a physical item. It's just the fact that it is something representing that item. And the beautiful thing about it or the hope of it is when we've made digital copies of things, people download your file and steal it. Everyone's like, oh, someone stole my digital files. Digital is worth nothing. All it's doing is an attempt to– note ownership of that bit of digital data. And it doesn't stop people from downloading and stealing it.
SPEAKER_03:And this is where people get confused, I think, because the– like I've heard people go, you know, what's the point in owning this thing that no one has? Like, you're great, so you've got this– you've got the key ownership of this thing. digital object. Well, everybody else gets to look at it. So who gives a shit? Yeah. But if you owned the Mona Lisa, everyone else still has photos of the Mona Lisa. You're the one with the Mona Lisa. And the thing that people- You
SPEAKER_04:could choose to put it in a museum or
SPEAKER_03:not. Yeah. And the thing that people forget is that ownership of things- is about a couple of things. It's about a sort of a, ha, this is my precious, you know, that kind of thing to the individual. And it is also the show-off factor of I own this thing. Like there is structurally no difference between any of the cars on the planet. They all have, you know, four wheels and a fist to steer it with and that's fucking it, right? But there is status and experience related to each one of them that varies depending on, primarily the price point. And so ownership of any of this stuff is no different than owning the first edition of blah, blah, or the comic book in its case and hasn't been taken out and blah, blah. It's no different than any of that stuff, that sort of ownership aspect of it, owning the file.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and you can be the person who doesn't show it to anyone. And if you don't put the file on the internet and no one sees it, or everyone sees a really low-res version of it or something, and then it gets its– people desire it because of that. Or you get a Banksy piece that no one sees. That's one way of thinking about the ownership. And you might think, I'm the person that owns the Banksy that no one's seen, and that's got its own value. But you could also be the person that owns the Banksy that everyone's seen, and you're known as the owner, and that's what we're talking about. NFT is producing a– is about having a ledger system– And this blockchain and all blockchain is is the connection of ledgers and a bunch of ledgers that are connected that distributes this information so that it's very clear it can't be destroyed, the understanding of ownership of that
SPEAKER_03:original file. The only thing that I've understood about blockchain is that it's a way of describing a series of activities in a way that each– petition of the activity is dependent on the previous and the future petition. So a blockchain, the thing that makes it a blockchain is that the parcel that you're looking at is dependent on the parcel previous and the parcel after. And that's how it gets itself to be unique. We
SPEAKER_04:could be wrong with that, but I believe that's a part of it
SPEAKER_03:too. Good luck trying to find out if I'm wrong or right. Because nobody fucking knows what it is except for like two nerds and they're
SPEAKER_04:billionaires and don't talk. But the good thing about that is it's a part of the thing that allows it to be unique and understood as unique. There's a lot of crypto management in that that sees that this is the case. So if the world says this is the system, blockchain is the system and we all agree on it, just like we all agree on money, that's how money works. If we disagree on money... And the currency flops and we no longer use currency and we're in the dark ages. Well, ask anyone in Eastern Europe. Yeah, that's right. So it's important that we all believe in that and that it works. But, you know, I had one group because, you know, I'm really interested in metadata, you know, so when you go on a digital image file, take your photo, your camera's metadata gets applied, the lens you had on, the time of day, and, you know, putting your own information into it, keywords, titles, all interested in that. So I'm a part of a metadata discussion group at lots of them and we talk about, you know, Sorry.
SPEAKER_03:My God.
SPEAKER_04:We talk about hierarchy of naming things.
SPEAKER_03:Do they crown the king of the nerds in that
SPEAKER_04:forum? Here's a great example, right? You take a picture and you tag it as a picture of a frog. So you take a picture of a froggy and you say that's a froggy, right? Well, what branch of frogs it is. Think of the genus species and all that kind of stuff. So when you start thinking, oh, okay, it's not just a frog anymore. It's got all this other stuff that's got to go with it. That's the sort of stuff these guys discuss, right? And they just said NFTs are just a bitly link to a website that you pay for, an expensive bitly link. And they are quite right. And if you want to– Look at it. It is a bit that way. People say, oh, it's just criminal, this stuff. But it's about creating a system that we can do to manage digital ownership, ownership of things which just exist in the digital world. And, of course, other physical things because you can copy them only, so you can forge it.
SPEAKER_03:But to me, that's just the minutiae of is it this and is it that? And do we say that it's a bitly link? I mean, that's just minimising the– potential of it, I think. And because I've found, when I started reading about it, I thought it was just so exciting because we as a world have been in the last 40 years trying to grapple with what digital means and how do we apply what we value offline, online. In all sorts of ways. And having this thing of going, okay, this digital thing has meaning. This one version of this digital thing has meaning. Because, like, I know our email correspondence from 1995 where you asked me out on a date has enormous meaning, right? even though it's a digital file. It could be reproduced, whatever. To me, that file has meaning in a way that your old tea kettle that I bought you has meaning. There's no difference. And the fact that it's digital or non-digital, whatever. So the fact that that is now being seen as something that is– globally recognised or increasingly globally recognised in a way that is like, we're all now going to say that this digital stuff also really matters.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, there's that aspect, but also this building of a structure... that allows for that ownership to go forward. And
SPEAKER_03:the fact that the artist gets a card every time it's sold. Well, they don't have to, but part of the build in the system is
SPEAKER_04:the artist. Like, for example, if you look at the…
SPEAKER_03:Galleries have started doing that for the last 10 years anyway because, I mean, good ones. We have this problem with Indigenous artists in Australia. You know, the Indigenous artists make this amazing stuff. Some white guy goes down there, buys a whole bunch for 500 bucks, sells it all for…$2,000 each and makes a billionty dollars and the indigenous artists get fucking 500 bucks. Because
SPEAKER_04:there's no way of telling. And back on looking at Mona Lisa, you might go, well, like at the same time, let's say Leonardo painted two or three in messing around with it and a couple got overpainted. So they x-ray other paintings and they find other things. And that's the only way they know of that old stuff, is that what's the likelihood of it being a Leonardo da Vinci? What's the likelihood? This is what's the likelihood of it being a Beeple? He's the guy that made the money. And this locks it in. And it allows Beeple, if it does get resold again, to get 10% because they built that into it. And so in a way, yes, it is... A Dumbo feather where you've, you know, the old reference for the Disney movie where Dumbo had to hang on to a feather to fly but one day the feather lost the feather and he still could fly. It was just a belief thing. Just the same as believing
SPEAKER_03:money. Oh God, that's the secret. Don't.
SPEAKER_04:No, no, it's not the secret. It's not the secret.
SPEAKER_03:It's the secret. You just write down on a piece of paper, I want a million dollars in my bank and then you get it.
SPEAKER_04:No, it doesn't work that way. If you believe hard enough. It's not that way. If you believe. No, you've got to believe in the money system. You've got to believe in that the world's going to be better tomorrow. Otherwise, that's what keeps the world going. It's going to be better tomorrow. Otherwise, it doesn't work. So, yeah, it's really cool and I'm very excited about it. There's issues around energy of
SPEAKER_03:creating. But the day trading douchebags are infiltrating it already. They're trashing it. And they're going, oh my God, we can make so much money on all this digital. And these digital quote unquote artists going, oh look, I made an NFT and here it is. Now it's worth something. It's not fucking worth anything.
SPEAKER_04:Unless your work's good.
SPEAKER_03:It's no different than the rest of the world. It's all the same. Yeah, but the
SPEAKER_04:work's got
SPEAKER_03:to be good. Yes, that's what I mean. It has to be good. And
SPEAKER_04:Beeple's work is really good.
SPEAKER_03:But he built himself a brand leading up to that in the traditional outside of online world. He was a known entity. He was a digital artist though. Yeah, but he was a known entity as a designer and an artist working outside of NFTs and digital and anything else, quite separate from that as a graphic designer. And now he's trying to
SPEAKER_04:make physical versions of the digital
SPEAKER_03:art. And now that's right. It's just like Amazon going, well, we destroyed all the bookshops. Now we're all online. Now we want bookshops.
SPEAKER_04:He's trying to make interesting screens, screens that wrap in three dimensions and stuff to show his work, to experience it more. And he's got engineers, employed engineers.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, now that he's got a millionty, billionty dollars to fuck around with.
SPEAKER_04:Plus all the other millions.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, it's very exciting. I think the world should give me that amount of money and see what I could do with the lab industry.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you know what I want to see is I think we're going to get to the point where– Photographers are going to register. They're already registering their images with copyright agencies. You can pay to have your image. I think we're going to be registering NFTs on the pictures we take or the ones that we get curated enough to show. And that's just– and it's going to get– I mean, at the moment, there's just so much power to register an NFT and to make the blockchain work that it's, you know, environmentally dangerous.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's– I mean, isn't that– the environmental aspect of this is only going to be resolved when we have quantum technology.
SPEAKER_04:Which we already have one now. Just this week it was announced quantum computers available for public use. Oh, really? Yeah. So it will get resolved and it's because it uses a lot of computing power and believe it or not, And
SPEAKER_03:anybody giving shit to people doing NFTs and Bitcoin and stuff from an environmental perspective, I hope you shut your Netflix account down because guess what, honey? It's the same thing.
SPEAKER_04:And making a movie, rendering a 5K movie, you know, uses so much computer power and electricity. So 4K, whatever it is. So yeah, like this is just, that's just noise. It's not worth thinking about. I think we've got a good way forward to establishing ownership of Of digital assets, which we need. So yay to the NFT.
SPEAKER_03:Yay to the
SPEAKER_04:nerds. Everybody, thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_03:And if you haven't seen– can we just put on the TikTok? Can we laugh at some nerds? Did you see that TikTok I sent you? But
SPEAKER_04:that's an old one. That's the Windows team dancing on stage.
SPEAKER_03:It is so glorious. These old men pretending to be–
SPEAKER_04:It was Bill Gates before he retired. They were plenty old. Bill Gates before he retired.
SPEAKER_03:I know, but they're still like, I don't know. It was just, I mean, generally anyone dancing will make me cringe beyond belief. Anyone old slash male dancing kills me, kills me. And now these guys are on stage trying to look like they're super excited.
SPEAKER_04:They were
SPEAKER_03:excited. Super excited and so American. Oh, my God. It was like every Kodak conference we've ever been to.
SPEAKER_04:Let's say goodnight to these listeners. Good afternoon. Invite me to a conference. Good morning, whoever, whatever time of day.
SPEAKER_03:That's it. We're just going to cross. We're going. Why?
SPEAKER_04:Because it's now lots of
SPEAKER_03:time. Fuck, 27 minutes. We've got to walk the dog. Yes. He's sucking on my lap.
SPEAKER_04:We love you all. We do. Thanks for listening. Go and see Prism. Look at it online. Follow the
SPEAKER_03:links. And blow up our video of our teaser for the thingamajig, even though it's three minutes long and doesn't fit in any social media requirements, but whatever. Love you. Bye. Nathan K. So wrong.
SPEAKER_04:Bye. Bye. Bye.