Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 41 - Rick Liston interview
Paul interviews Rick Liston, a wedding photographer who has made it his mission to not only give his clients the best experience, but to make the business of wedding photography run as smoothly as possible. Rick has spent years systematising every background process that can be, allowing him to focus on his clients and have a full life outside the demanding world of a wedding photographer.
Rick’s Wedding Workflow business is the culmination of his efforts, where he helps others set up their systems and optimise their web store.
Like we all should, Rick is keenly aware of the ticking clock of life. He is inspirational in his drive to regain his time from wherever he can. He’s had an amazing life including being a contestant on The Amazing Race…
You’ll enjoy this!
https://rickliston.com
https://weddingworkflows.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Amazing_Race:_China_Rush_contestants
https://www.pic-time.com/
G'day listeners, welcome to the Atkins Labcast. In this episode I interview Yarra Valley wedding photographer Rick Liston. Now Rick's work is not only some of the best wedding photography you'll see these days, it's very heartfelt, very relationship orientated. You can see that he connects beautifully with his clients. There's a lot more to what Rick is doing. Wedding photography is a way that he, well it's his means to an end. But this episode's a bit more about the broader idea of running photography as a business and actually making a good income from that. Well, I'm normally a little bit averse to sort of money-focused discussions. At the heart of it, if we want to keep practising our art, if we want to keep photographing our favourite people as a business, we need to think about money as a key aspect of it. And over the last few years, a lot of opportunities have opened up in the area of after-sales service, in the line of a web gallery. Now, we worked with PicTime quite a few years ago, and of course, ShootProof and PixySet and InstaProofs and PhotoMerchant. All these systems are a really great way of having a home for the work that you take that allows other people, whether they be directly your clients or indirectly, depending on the kind of work you do, to buy at their leisure. Because it seems to be we're in an era these days where people like to find out a little bit more about the subject before they're sold to. So it used to be in the past that people would say, oh, as soon as they make contact with me and we have a meeting, they're booked. And look, I completely agree these days. That can be a little bit of a rarity, actually get to see the clients before the event. But There is another element to that, that people want to find out more about you and they want to buy at their leisure. And certainly with what's happened with home shopping and internet shopping and the pandemic and all that sort of stuff, we've all gotten used to spending money online. It's become a really big popular thing. So I think for any photographer that's missing that in their list of things that they offer is really passing up an opportunity. And the nice thing about it is it's a fairly low pressure opportunity. process. It's not that you're sitting in front of people asking for money, which I know is really challenging. So Rick has looked at what is involved in being a wedding photographer and the systems that are needed to keep in contact with a client. Because remember, they're booking a year out. You want to maintain that contact. You want to get them excited about the day. You want them to follow all the way through your journey with you to be a part of you and so that you can be a part of their journey right up to that wedding day and beyond. Because of course, there's anniversary sales, there's, you know, there's babies, there's a lot of opportunities beyond that. So Rick has got, I'll put a lot of thought into the background of this. He set up systems that can help you set up your web gallery service with pick time. Because look, it's, It's a big setup process, but once it's done, it just sits and bumbles along the background. So Rick's put a lot of thought into what's involved in getting this right and working properly, and he's offering a service to help you, the photographer, set that up. He calls that Wedding Workflows. So look, this episode is really worth listening to. Not only that, Rick is a really interesting guy, and you'll find out more about it, but you need to know that, well, one of the things that flipped my lid is that he was on The Amazing Race, on the TV show The Amazing Race. He's also a host of a TV show in Southeast Asia. So he's done a lot of interesting stuff. He's going some interesting directions. So this is going to be a corker. Sit back and enjoy. Just out of frame, I think. Is it still going?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, just really.
SPEAKER_03:You haven't put any peanut butter down there for us.
SPEAKER_00:For entertainment. Awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Well, welcome to the podcast, Rick. It's been a couple of years that I've been You know, keeping an eye on what you've been doing. You sound like a bloody overlord watching things. Nothing like that. And I'm not a perv either. It's not, you know, nothing weird like that. But your work and your influence has just sort of been poking around the edges through our connections with Picktime because you've been one of the champions of their system. But I know there's a hell of a lot more to you because I said to Kate, I said, what do I ask Rick? And she said, I don't know, just ask him something about what he did before he became a wedding photographer. And then I started doing some Googling and realised, yeah, there's a lot of Rick there. And so it's probably going to be a– there's going to be a lot to talk about as well as the stuff that you have brought to the industry, the things that– the messages that you're kind of putting forward to the working professional photographers and how to make their life– you know, more of a life and less of a sort of a hook onto their business. So we're going to get onto that as well. But what I really want to ask you is where did photography start for you and, you know, how did it all begin? So
SPEAKER_02:pretty ridiculous story for where photography started for me, but I... I was in the cheapest hostel in London with a mate of mine, Josh, getting asked for change in the shower, using toothbrushes as chopsticks for our two-minute noodle stuff. So we were just pushing it as far as we possibly could to have an experience without any income or funds. But we just had this incredible experience. confidence that we would always land on our feet. And one of those particular evenings, we got a text through someone that we'd met previously in Vietnam. And he just said, hey, boys, been seeing some of your photos coming through. Facebook was just kind of new at this time. Would you be interested in coming to Morocco with us on a photo shoot to model these travel bags? They were a travel company called Life Venture. So hell yes. We just knew this next thing would come along this next opportunity hang on hang on what
SPEAKER_03:put you in the area that people will would ask you that question
SPEAKER_02:well this is something that my 20s was was kind of geared towards always being available So just having incredible flexibility so that should any opportunity like this arise, we'd be able to jump on it. And it helps when you don't have, you know, stuff like employment, responsibility, I don't know, relationship, any of those normal things people strive for. And you're just like, my go-to trait right now is complete flexibility. And we'll see what happens. So yeah. that did tend to open up a lot of windows, especially when you start getting known for this ridiculous flexibility and I guess a yes motto to whatever might come your way. So anyway, next minute, we're on our way to Morocco. And the photographer on this trip is a man named Martin Hartley. He was a National Geographic photographer. And we didn't realize at the time just how incredible he was as an individual. So it was such a blessing to be on this trip. on this trip with him. And he took a photo of me doing a backflip off the camel in the Sahara right at sunset. And I saw it off the back of his camera. I was just like, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. I just can't believe. I now get to appreciate this moment for the rest of my life. Like this just, you know, encapsulates this kind of trip and the adventure that we're on. And I was just like, man, God, you're awesome. So I was just, I was loving him, loving his, I don't know, his take on travel photography and the places that took him and the experiences he got to have with it. And he started to, yeah, take me under his wing. So he let me use his gear, took me around on the next trip that they went on for that brand. And that was my introduction to photography, probably the best job I've ever had, which was just travel shooting with this
SPEAKER_03:fantastic photographer. There's a natural feel for design and filling the frame the right kind of way and positioning subjects. That was just a thing that came to you naturally, huh?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't think... I guess. Yeah, so I was never an artist of any kind before that. I did bloody accounting at university. But I think what I've always brought to the table is a connection with the people that I'm shooting. So that's what I really feel strongly about what I'm kind of providing for my couples during weddings. So when I walk into a room of complete strangers, I can make them comfortable with me as quickly as possible. And I can find a point of commonality, which then allows me to kind of capture great, great shots because it's them. That's what they're loving in the photos. It's them being themselves as opposed to someone who might be an incredible artistic photographer, but might make people feel awkward around them if they're not able to walk in and get a room full of people to vibe with them. So that was something I think I always had a good ability to do to kind of break down barriers immediately with people I've just met.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's a huge skill. And people forget that who are wanting to move into the photography world. They, you know, they think it's all about the picture taking. But I think, you know, it's a relationship business. I mean, all business is a relationship business, regardless of where you're accounting is a relationship business. So tell me, do you find, because I've found that a lot of photographers who have this skill and are really passionate you know, at the front of the game, the event of the wedding is a lot of emotional work and the relationship with the couple, because they're tracking so well with them leading up to it and from the beginning and even through it afterwards, it's quite draining. And so it's actually, you know, you leave a wedding and there's just not a lot of you left.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You're right. You've got a year, potentially a year and a half of buildup of emails, preparation, guidance. Because you've gone through these processes so many times, there's just so much information that you have to impart on couples who are about to go through this stressful scenario for the first time. So they should be reaching out to you for that information. But you're right. It is quite an ordeal leading up to it, which is why I am someone who always focused on what... which of this information could actually be automated because I can't rely on myself to remember to do things. And I know I have a lot of knowledge that I can provide to couples. I know that when I see a nightmare on the day or a headache arising that, hey, I think this could be prevented with some great information for couples. But if it was just up to me to remember to tell all the couples, I know that I wouldn't. So that's why I forced myself to start putting an email template together basically for everything that arose during a wedding day that I feel like future couples would want to know. So that then alleviates the pressure off me to not have to remember to email that. Also, I'm aiming to get that information to them before they have a chance to think of it and write to me, which means one less email for me to write, so I'm kind of beating them to it. And it just creates... great rapport like so it creates raving fans before you kind of show up on the wedding day because you've just been there with relevant information at the relevant time um for them on their journey um which i think basically you can can after you've got them booked in after you've had your meeting it can take a lot of that pressure off um until you you show up on the day and you've got the information you need from them they've got the information they need from you and that's all been one big automated process
SPEAKER_03:So you've now, you've sort of taken this idea and you're sort of bringing it and helping other photographers make their life better using this sort of automation. Yeah. And it's now a new angle of what you're doing. Is that right?
SPEAKER_02:That's right. Well, the good thing is there's literally nothing special about what I do and it is entirely replicable. for anyone else. And the other good thing is that weddings are... Hang on, hang on. You're telling me you're not
SPEAKER_03:special.
SPEAKER_02:Not at all special, mate. Quite an underwhelming photographer as well, to be honest. But on the automation side of things, there's, yeah, it's just a series of, you know, good information at the right time, which is something that can be kind of implemented into anyone else's wedding business. The problem is it takes... years and hundreds of weddings to know what to write in those templates, how to create a great client journey, how to get in there and fill that tumbleweed zone from the time they book to the time of their wedding day. So anything where every single photographer has to kind of reinvent the wheel is an opportunity for someone to step up and provide that. as a service. It's going to make their lives a lot easier. And I know the impact that it's going to make on theirs because I know the impact it makes on mine. If I'm spending my week hanging out with my daughter, mountain bike riding with my mates, going for walks with my wife, whatever it is, going to the beach, going on trips, instead of rewriting the same procedural emails, I'm feeling a lot better about myself, my life, my family. I'm a much better and present husband and father. So... Yeah, it's a really simple thing that creates a really massive impact and not just on my life right now, but my future decades of being able to look after my own health and nutrition because I have the time to do it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think that's like... it's one of those things people kind of forget and it and it does feel uh like the admin side of of it it doesn't feel like the the job that we're in for but it's you know as i said before you're running a business so how often are you contacting would you recommend contacting a client before an event is it is it monthly you're reaching out to them
SPEAKER_02:um yeah certainly so um we let me see uh it's probably about 22 times i think that uh that we might uh we might be in contact over over the course of that uh that wedding journey but remember you got like a year and a half right leading up to a wedding and there's so many little bits of information that they will benefit from so it doesn't make sense to me that to send them one huge long pdf or send them to one website where they've got you know all this different stuff because they just they just won't ever have the time to read through all these hours of stuff so i much prefer to kind of drip free drip feed information through as and when it's going to be relevant um and for them it's my god this photographer is just continually being in touch providing me with helpful information and the thing is like it is helpful like like i really stay local to my region so i have a lot of local specific knowledge on where to be getting ready the kind of airbnbs you might be looking at where is great light um the other vendors you know that i've worked with and i know i'm going to crush it what to do with all your guests the day after you know the the wedding where you might want to go and hang out and have a barbecue um all this this stuff that makes their their journey just so much more painless and something that they're always very appreciative of um so then it's you're going beyond obviously just taking the wedding photos but you're being a real guide for them on their on their wedding day
SPEAKER_03:yeah you're yarra valley right
SPEAKER_02:that's correct yeah
SPEAKER_03:yeah i mean that's that's probably like wedding central for australia i'd I'd almost think. Would you say that?
SPEAKER_02:I don't know about Australia, but it would certainly– I made the decision to be a wedding photographer based on the proximity of wedding venues to the Yarra Valley. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a strategic decision.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. Okay, so wind back the clock. Where were you living before you landed in? Now, you're Healesville?
SPEAKER_02:Healesville, that's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Hey, by the way, on the side, did the fires affect you?
SPEAKER_02:We got a mountain right here, and the other side of the mountain was absolutely scorched, and we were waiting. We were watching the smoke coming over the top and just waiting for the wind to turn, which would have brought it over this side, and fortunately it did not. So certainly affected in the way of when you're part of a community that's lost so much, absolutely, but not personally on this property.
SPEAKER_03:So you don't live with a bag packed? That's not a thing at the moment, is it? It
SPEAKER_02:would be unwise not to be prepared for that eventuality. So, yeah, you want to make sure that you have a very good exit strategy. And if you're not thinking about that, you're probably just one more fire away from definitely thinking about it the next time. So everyone that's lived through that already is– I think it's always at the front of their minds, particularly on hot, dry days. But obviously quite the tangent. I know. I
SPEAKER_03:really feel for you guys. We've had our fair doses here. And I know Kate and I have lived up in the hills here and we've felt that pressure. And one of the reasons that we moved was a small one, but it was when they're asking the kids at primary school, well, what's your plan? And when you had to ask the primary school, where is the last shelter? location you know and oh yes we're in the gym here and the fire goes overhead and we're meanwhile we're down in adelaide running the lab and thinking wow okay so this could be happening every time you look up you see smoke so i mean i'm not pedantic and terrified of it i just realize it's one of those things that sits there and bubbles uh underneath life there um but at any rate dark topic um where were you before this why and and why did you move to the yarrow was that Because now I may have muddled this up. You moved because that was a great place to be a wedding photographer and you wanted to be a wedding photographer. Is that how you ended up?
SPEAKER_02:Nope. So... Became a wedding photographer out of desperation. So I was living in Shanghai. I was living there with my wife, Nadia, who is Spanish. And once we became pregnant, we moved back to Spain where we had our daughter, Vedra. And then when she was six months old, we made the move to Australia. So that was because I was illegal in Spain. We had no savings, no income. And it was a bit of a race between who could be legal in the other person's country first. And Nadia won. So she got her spouse visa approved. So it's like, all right, we're off to Australia. What am I going to do. And the incredible thing about desperation is that it can really bring out the best in you. So I just knew I couldn't fail, right? What can I do when I arrive in Australia where I can start a business and create sustainable income for myself and my family as quickly as possible? So it was a look at where we're going to be. My mom was in Hillsville. That's where I grew up. So like, yep, I actually had a really great upbringing there. Something I didn't appreciate probably enough of the time. And let's move there. So then at least we've got another adult who can help with Vedra. And I reckon I can become a wedding photographer. So before we even moved to Australia, I started on the blogs. I created a top 10 Yarra Valley wedding venues blog, which I think is still number one to this day and has been a great source of traffic and leads. What year was that? That would have been 2014. Right,
SPEAKER_03:right. Wow. That's crazy. That's crazy. And that's still number one. So you really hit the ground running. Didn't have a choice not to, Matt. Didn't have a choice not to, yeah. Well, yeah, I suppose. So let's wind back. Shanghai, what was life there like and what led you to Shanghai?
SPEAKER_02:Once again, the flexibility of being able to say yes to anything. They were filming their first reality television show, The Amazing Race. People knew to send me links to this kind of stuff. I've done a few things like this before. One day, my mate and I, we hear about it. I knew what they might be looking for in an application video. On his lunch break, we put a video together of ourselves bathing in a red wine vat. Just to in the most ridiculous Australian colloquialisms. And then, yeah, I think less than two weeks later we were touching down in Shanghai on a pretty incredible adventure that, let me go, just desperately wants to be part of the party right now. What's the dog's name? Bishu. He's Spanish and he's just had a haircut and doesn't quite feel himself. Oh, poor thing. What's that
SPEAKER_03:tongue? I know where it's been. what's the
SPEAKER_02:absolutely right um uh yeah but no shanghai was an incredible incredible city man um absolutely you
SPEAKER_03:just skipped over the amazing race stuff
SPEAKER_02:uh yeah actually the joy of uh finally re-watching it with uh with my daughter she's she's uh just about to turn nine and um and you know she's It's a good little way to introduce her to, I guess, our past life when you've got obviously a film crew following you around for five weeks to all the beautiful different parts of an incredible and diverse country.
SPEAKER_03:So hang on, you're on the amazing race. I'm sorry, I don't mean to fanboy. Although I've got to say, out of all those programs, it feels like the one where you see the Americans on it, it's just like, just dismiss local culture event it's like they just power through these places but anyway it's fascinating to watch it's incredible
SPEAKER_02:well it's fascinating to be on i mean there's not too many opportunities you have in life where you uh have your money taken away um no internet access no phones um and no idea what you're doing tomorrow and every day you're doing these ridiculous challenges with a wonderful group of people in in you know some of the most incredible parts of the world. Because, like, obviously it was there to showcase, I think, different cities around China, different places around China. So their access to those cities and places was amazing. They shut down a section of the Great Wall of China for us to, you know, run up. Like, I don't know, just stuff that would never come along in your typical kind of backpacking journey. And it was expertly documented, which I love as well.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, tell me, what season or... So
SPEAKER_02:if you would, yeah, The Amazing Race China Rush is what it was called season one. Yeah, the first foray into reality TV. And then that was also my intro into like working there afterwards. Because basically on day two in Shanghai, I was like, oh, we're moving here. This... This place is rad. And the connection that you kind of build, the family you build after being on a set, a film crew for five weeks with not just the contestants, but the production staff was amazing. So then after that, just had these ridiculous opportunities to continue to work in TV and host things and everything. be a part of stuff. Yeah. So it
SPEAKER_03:was in PV.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. This is trying to be, this is just sharing out of the time. Like if you're, if you're a white and available, like they were like, Oh great. And you know, you'd previously been on TV. So it's just, let's, let's put this guy on a, on anything. And once again, when you have, you know, unbridled flexibility and a yes attitude, that was, there's just all these strange things that would open up that you would never have the opportunity to, to do in Australia. I feel cause you might, you might need something like, you know, experience, you know, a resume, a single, you know, a single job previously, anything relating to what you're doing. But yeah, it was certainly a Wild West atmosphere there.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's insane. So I think, I suppose a lot of those skills you would have picked up, you know, basically tap dancing live in front of, you know, an audience where you've got to– you can't stop. You've got to roll with it. I mean, that must be all massive feeding into the way you run your wedding photography gigs and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02:It certainly helps, yeah, like I said at the start of this, just being comfortable walking into any room of people and finding a point of commonality and knowing how to de-stress a situation because– Frankly, I don't know. You've seen a lot worse. Weddings
SPEAKER_03:are tough gigs, though. Fashion with amateurs, they're insane events. If you're there and people can guide it through, you'd be the hero of the day. You want the day to go well.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so before they've seen a photograph, I think they've made their mind up about me and the impact I've had on their wedding day, which is always great. And it's usually positive. So, yeah, no, I really feel that's like 80% of kind of what I'm bringing on that wedding day is the calm, the personality, the comfort. And that then allows me to take photos that... I think they really resonate with because they see themselves in them. They know, hey, this isn't a shot of me feeling awkward. This is a shot of me getting the most out of my day. And I know in a big way that was thanks to Rick.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, that's so important. I mean, really, you're, other than the celebrant, you're the only person who's with the wedding party has experience that's with them all day long.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And it's a unique position really to be in and it's a real challenge for a lot of photographers. And I know– I talked about burnout a bit earlier where you see some photographers really emotionally involved, become good friends with couples, which I'm sure there's a risk in that. I'm sure, you know, there is a benefit in having a little bit of mental distance in there. Is that something you ever struggle with?
SPEAKER_02:So when I first started out– That was me. I definitely wanted to put time into the meetings and everything and going to dinner. But I pretty soon realized that all of that time, so basically every night of the weekday, I was heading out because I live in Hillsville. It's like 45 minutes to Ringwood to meet them there, an hour and a half, and then the 45 minutes back. And then I realized... The opportunity cost of these meetings is that I'm missing out on watching my daughter grow up. So she's coming home from school. I'm not there. I'm not there for the dinner and all that kind of stuff. So to be honest, I'd rather spend that time with them or with my friends or with myself. And I know and have proven that that meeting doesn't actually... um make a difference in in my ability to be a wedding photographer their ability to get to know me um all the performance of myself all the photos on the on the day so no no issues still booking uh booking weddings um but it just means that yeah i'm tenacious with how i'm spending my finite time on the planet and uh because we only get one shot of this man it's one wild and beautiful life and i want to be looking back and knowing that i've spent it where i can that i've I've got my zone of genius, which is showing up on wedding days, taking wedding photos that are going to be there for couples to remember the rest of their life. But the rest of that time, if I want to be doing what I want to be doing, because the good thing about weddings is that so much of it can be either automated or outsourced, and it doesn't impact our ability to go up and shoot the day and create a great product that they're going to love. And I'm proof of that. Yeah. And I'm thinking that it can't be done without hours of getting to know each other and all that kind of stuff. Trust me, it most definitely can. And yeah, I don't know. I want to choose the people that I hang out with. I don't want to be... I guess, forced to need to spend my time with people that perhaps may not resonate with me. There are certainly people that I meet during weddings that I do like and then I will choose to want to see and go and hang out with. But if you're shooting 100 weddings a year and every one of them has to be a great personal friend that you have multiple meetings with and you're seeing afterwards, not to mention their wedding day, not to mention all the admin, where is the time in that? So this is, yeah, I think a huge tax involved if that's how involved you are.
SPEAKER_03:So what gave you– like, I mean, a lot of the things you've said about limited time and analyzing your time, like that's a– you hear it a lot. Actually applying it to yourself is a whole other level of challenge and skill. And, like, you're right, we only have one go. But most people don't work that out. Now, I'm 53 this year. I'm starting to feel that in the last few years. And I don't know why– I've not taken that sort of stuff more seriously or, you know, what is the thing that allows you to see this clearly about stuff? Have you got something that's in your past or is it part of that, you know, you studied accounting so you were drawn to this sort of analysis and cold hard facts of a situation. What sort of gave you that perspective? It's unique to see someone actually using it and living it.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It was a lot more simple and a lot more powerful than anything I learned in accounting, but it was my daughter. When I was spending so much time with couples doing stuff that frankly wasn't impacting my ability to run a business or earn an income, and she just asked me, Daddy, do you love them more than me? And that's all I needed to hear, all I needed to know. If she's already thinking that at that young age, then what is the point, man? I'm not put on this planet to take wedding photos, man. It's to be a father to her, to be a partner to my wife, to be friends to my mates, to look after myself. So I've got to keep in mind... what I'm actually doing this wedding business for. It's for us. And if that's coming at the cost of spending time with them, then I'm doing a shit job. So there's no way I started out on this journey to not be a present father. So that just needed to change quick smart. And then I guess, yeah, the accounting, some accounting principles of opportunity cost, risk and return, things I've always stayed with my entire life. You can pretty easily see what benefit am I getting from spending time writing a fresh Instagram caption that might take me half an hour and there's distractions or whatever and every time I go on to do it, then I'm losing another 45 minutes just scrolling through and putting together carousel, all this stuff. So once you start to ask yourself, what lights me up and what drains me? I'm going to move towards what lights me up and move away from what drains me. And that could be something that doesn't earn income or whatever, but it does light you up. You want to be spending your time on this planet doing things that light you up with the people that light you up. And the beautiful thing about weddings is that so much of it is procedural tasks that can either be automated or can be outsourced to somebody else.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell us about that side of the business that you're working with now. I completely agree with you and you've echoed it several times, this automation of workflow. What is it that you're offering in your business other side of your business that's not wedding photography. So tell me how that all works.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, we offer workflow installations and virtual assistant services. And so what that means is just basically things that I've done in my business that I know I can apply to other businesses to help them rather than them have to reinvent that wheel and take their valuable time doing the same thing time and time again. And we can use, for example, Atkins products, right? Setting up custom Atkins products in the Any photographer that's had to do this knows how painful it is, right? So you've got to get the images. You've got to try to make your own product images of those Atkins products looking fantastic with their own shots. You've got to get all the different dimensions of the frames of each one of those different products, put them in the store, figure out a pricing system that's going to incorporate, obviously, the cost price plus your own markup and put all those down. Insert the form so you can, like, choose all the different frame colors like this is a painful process that every photographer has to go through so anything like that it i always see an opportunity in that because i'm like all right how about one person just does it does it well and then replicates it in other people's accounts because it doesn't change you know your products don't change for each different photographer it's all the same products all the same sizes right so things like that i i I know the impact it can make because generally people just won't do it. Anything that's hard like that and painful, they just generally won't take the time because it's such an annoying headache of a task. And that means that their couples probably aren't getting the best available prints, right? Like you've got such beautiful products that are not getting into the homes of their couples because of the pain in the ass of setting it up. And for photographers, that's like missing the end game, right? You're doing all the hard work. meeting these couples, helping them out with their wedding, shooting the day, but then the photos aren't getting onto the walls or into albums and aren't getting loved and appreciated every day of their lives. And that's, to me, obviously the end game of what we do. So I want to try to make that process as painless as possible for other photographers and provide a service of doing that hard, painful task.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you do hear a lot of, and even if it's just the, you talk to people about, the opportunities at PicTime or PixySet or ShootProof or whatever that is, and they go, oh, yeah, but setting up is complicated. Yeah, it is, but it's only complicated in that you need to sit down for an hour and just work out how complicated it is. But I think a lot of minds, mine included, you know, your brain, when you go to that, you go, oh, you know, it's working, I'll just put it aside and you don't think about it. And yet it's funny... You know, you talked about our products and I don't, you know, this is not, I don't want this to be about that particular. I'm just talking about what draws people into the industry and why people book professional photographers. And I really think it's because of the things that were made in the past by photographers that are the evidence of their work. So whether it be a frame thing on the wall or an album or, you know, that's what attracts people to you as photographers. looking for a professional photographer sure now we've got a social media that people want to show off what they've been up to of course but i think at the heart you're building this um this this thing this object this treasure that is for them forever and then gets discovered by future generations of the family it's their mark of the on the world in some ways and it is a little disappointing that like digital kind of skipped right past that understanding. And it's taken us a while to go back, but hang on, hang on. We're not just making this to fill up hard drives. We actually, we want something to come out at the end of it. And that's what I love most about, and it sounds super corny and salesy, but it's what I love most about what we do here is that, and in fact, I love it more now in a digital world because only the best stuff makes it to print and frame and all that kind of thing. But those things become really important treasures. And I know myself, like if I turned the camera around and showed you my office, it's just photos of stuff that I love and family and important things in my life. And I'm surrounded by it. And I think everyone wants to walk down that corridor in their house, you know, the entrance hall and either side of them is their life, you know, documented.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, 100%. But it's crazy, it's scary. If you were to think, and obviously anyone listening to this, ask yourself what percentage of the photos you take actually end up printed now versus the 100% when it was filmed. Like I've got more printed photos of me from that era when I was a kid than I reckon I do now as an adult who's a professional photographer taking bloody thousands of photos a week probably. So, yeah, it's, I don't know. It is crazy to think... And that's why I want to make sure as many photographers have that possibility to get past that pain point so that they can provide those beautiful printed products for their couples, which I'm sure everyone going out and having their wedding foresees themselves getting photos printed. I think it's pretty self-explanatory that you want that. So it's just a shame if they can't do that because... we haven't taken the time to set it up. And I also understand that there's something called hyperbolic discounting where we generally will not do things that provide us with long-term results because we're more keen on focusing on short-term gains. So we might be more interested in a dopamine hit of jumping on the gram, seeing if we can get some likes, than of setting up a process or a system that's going to be able to benefit our couples for the rest of our career and also ourselves, like give us an additional source of revenue per wedding. So there's massive gains to be had, both financial and as a way of delivering a better product to our couples by setting these things up, but we just don't. because we prefer to focus on short-term wins.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Tell me, I might sound like dopey with this question, but over the years, you're in business and this is what you do. I've kind of doubted the viability of selling products. So I look at our customer base and we have what you might call, there's a lot of people who enter the industry and don't last in the industry. So there's obviously a real challenge to getting through those first few years and whether they decide it's just too much. I know it upsets the older photographers and the experienced photographers, all these new people coming through the industry. And yeah, they don't last a lot too. But I worry that the addition of products, it's a big step. it really is a big step for a photographer to take that, to have the samples, to show the samples, all that kind of stuff. I worry about the viability of that. Now, we benefit because a new photographer comes along, they need samples, they need that stuff, they get excited. And so, yeah, we kind of benefit from a lot of new photographers, but we don't benefit really when they leave the industry. And I worry that, you know, we've got Expensive products, kind of fancy. I don't know how many of them and how they work. And I don't often get a chance to ask one of our customers, is that a thing or can you make a better living providing digitals and sending your clients to do? And I know it sounds like a gotcha question or a sales comment. I honestly don't know. I really am struggling to go, is this a thing? Tell me, what's your opinion on that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think this is probably one of the best returns and investment you can have is setting up some of these sales procedures and wonderful products. Because once it's set up, it's literally the time it takes you to click a few buttons on, all right, my wedding's uploaded. I'm going to start running these automations that are effectual in selling products. And then the additional hundreds of dollars you can get per wedding based off the two to three seconds it takes you to click those buttons. I don't think there's a better ROI out there for our industry. But yeah, like I said, we typically don't just because of how hard it is to set up A, the automations and B, the products themselves. Because you're right, trying to start out, like there's just so many things on the plate of a wedding photographer when they're first, when the first beginning, all the different things that they have to learn, set up, teach themselves. They come into it because they love taking photos, love being around people, but then, all right, okay, I've got to sell products. I've got to order these samples. That's expensive. I've got to shoot all these samples. I've got to create a webpage or a PDF in a way that people can understand the different options, title options, cover designs, spreads, paper quality. It's like, as soon as you start to think about it, they invariably just go, all right, you know what? I will just do digitals only because it's difficult, which is why we offer the services that we do of trying to create that process as painlessly as possible so that we can access their account. Hey, this is the way I do it. This is the way it works for me. You don't need to go through that process. We'll do it for you. And here you've got the products. Here you've got the automations. It just means that, okay, now I'm at the stage where all I have to do is click the buttons. So I think I know the difference it made for me adding print products and combining them with urgency-specific automations. So I know the impact that's made on my bottom line and also on my satisfaction of the job, knowing that these prints are actually in the houses of my couples. So it's possible. It's out there. And I think the only thing that's stepping in the way of people doing it is just... It's not in our zone of genius, man. What are you saying? Hyperbolic
SPEAKER_03:discounting. That's
SPEAKER_02:right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's easier. Yeah, I know exactly the feeling. I mean, I get tripped up by even Pinterest catches my eye, you know, and you end up doing something like that rather than doing something that will make a difference.
SPEAKER_02:We've got the smartest people in the world, you know, doing everything they can to make sure you are spending as much time as possible on platforms to serve your ads. All right, so you're switching tasks and obviously not doing the things we know we should be doing.
SPEAKER_03:So does that stuff trip you up?
SPEAKER_02:I've had the fortune of reading some incredible books that are available for about 14 bucks or listening to them on Audible. There's just so much amazing information out there that's allowed me to, I guess, get the most out of my time on this planet. And one of them was stolen focus as it relates to this particular topic. And it was just helping me understand the tax of switching tasks, of sitting down on my computer and having notifications open or even having social media on my phone. I mean, to run my business, that's all something a virtual assistant can do for me. So I don't actually need to go on there and do any of that if I know that when I'm on there, I'm spending more time than I would like to and not time in a way that I feel lights me up. So that comes with a decision like, all right, is this something I want to end? How would I end that? If I need it for my business, what can I do to get somebody else to do that for me? If I'm having trouble actually turning it off or I can't stop myself from looking at it when I wake up in the morning, then I need to erase it off my phone. And maybe if I need to check DMs, I can do that on the desktop where it's a less pleasurable experience. And now when I wake up in the morning, I'm actually proactive about how I'm going to spend my time in the day rather than reacting to what I'm seeing. Oh, I should do that. Oh, that's a great thing. I can't believe I didn't do that before or what's this article about and suddenly I'm reacting my time goes out the window you wake up again repeat
SPEAKER_03:yes there's your life gone
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_03:yeah no I get that I do it's a real it's the it's the brilliant minds that have designed this stuff my youngest is Josephine has done a great job of removing TikTok and Instagram from her phone she checks Instagram on her desktop so that she can keep up with her friends
SPEAKER_02:amazing that's that's phenomenal my god the
SPEAKER_03:the
SPEAKER_02:The percentage of population that don't do that but would benefit from doing that would be through the roof. So I love that she's already got that emotional maturity beyond most of the rest of us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. You know you're right when you talked about your daughter and how she threw that switch for you. I've had so many switches thrown by both my daughters and they're both, you know, one's 19 and one's 18 now. Oh, 20, oh God, yeah, 20 and 18. What happened was... Every year, something else is happening with them. And right now, the maturity and the... What I'm afraid of mostly is crusting over and being an old white guy who's full of grievances about the world. I want to be excited and I want that to continue. And you don't have to do much to do that. You just have to listen a bit and shut up and realize that You know, you don't actually know what's going on. And I think so many people in the world could do with a little bit more of that. Certainly what you're seeing with right-wing politics, it's just grievance. It's just we were in control. We knew how it worked. And now it's stopped. Something's wrong here. So, yeah, no, you're a genius. And watching that and listening to her as she goes on will feed you immensely. So back on track to– questions tell me about what your opinion on in-person sales are and i can see what you've done really works so well with services like pixie set and pick time where we have a great gallery system there and what they are they're just great retailers right they're just a great front shop better than you could even program yourself it's it's that's all they do it works on the phone it works on a desktop it works windows all the stuff that is a nightmare they look after but There was a huge fight where people were fighting with the value of online sales versus in-person sales. And those in-person sales, talking about grievance mentality, they were hanging on to it. And particularly the guys speaking, and guys, I said the word, men speaking about the importance of in-person sales, they were saying you just can't run a business without in-person sales. I don't think it's true anymore. Yeah. How does it work with you and where does in-person sales fit into what you're doing?
SPEAKER_02:I have no doubt whatsoever that in-person sales is incredibly effective. And If you have the time and can't think of a single other way to, I guess, increase your income per wedding and you have the space and all that jazz, it's probably really a fantastic and effective thing for you to do. I am very attracted to the efficiency of the online sales automations. So... Like I said, given that it takes me about three seconds to run that sales process for couples, getting them that point of time where they're most likely to want to buy with incredibly attractive deals that I think it's going to be hard for them to pass up. The return on investment I get from clicking that button and those sales are so much better for me than the tax it takes to clean up my house, have people come over, the impact on our home environment. So when I first started out, I was doing that and I pretty quickly realized This is not something I want to continue doing. It wasn't something I look forward to. It drained me, right? So like I said, I'm always moving forward to what lights me up and moving away from what drains me. And what you also have to recognize as well is the opportunity cost of that time. So if I'm spending several more hours a week doing something that's draining me, draining my wife because she does not like having strangers in the home at times that don't suit her and would much rather be having dinner with her family at that time, the opportunity cost to that might be all right i've got all these extra hours per week what what could i else what else could i be doing is there another business i could start another avenue that i could be going down and believe me there is just no shortage of opportunities out there for people who start thinking this way to find ways of making money and improving their lives um so for me i had to compare all right this is how much money i think i could make if i was doing that doing this thing that doesn't light me up versus an alternative way of doing it, which is the online sales where I'm getting, for me, I believe, great sales with very little work, like I said, a couple of seconds. And now, hmm, how do I use this time as another way to make money? How about I create a service for other people so that they can use my online sales service? So that's, I guess, an example now where I'm getting passive income from that plus I'm making album sales and, yeah, I don't know, I'm not pissing off my wife because we've got a group of strangers coming over to sit there and flick through albums.
SPEAKER_03:But you're not a portrait photographer. Correct, yeah. And if you were, I mean one of the things we see happen with wedding photographers is that burnout I've loosely talked about and then they kind of want their Saturdays back to go to, Sorry to do this to you, but to go to events that the children want to go to. So, you know, there's a few paths you can go down to help yourself with that. And bringing other people on that you work with is one way. And I can see you've got some partners in your business that work with you. But some people also go, well, I'm just going to pick up the family portrait stuff because we've had a history of people we've photographed. Now they're having babies. You know, they're settling down, the family's growing. I'll pivot to being a family photographer. Do you think that these automations and that sort of not needing to do in-person sales, do you think that would still work for those sorts of people?
SPEAKER_02:For starters, I think that's a fantastic idea as well. If you are looking for earning more money during the week and you've already built these connections with your wedding couple, so you've already got this database of people who know you, love you, are comfortable with you. So obviously considering doing family portraits or portraits with them I think is a great idea. And then, like I said, if it does light you up, if you do like having people over or you do happen to have a space where you can do that, I understand it is incredibly effective. And I don't know, I think it's probably a personality thing. Some people will prefer it one way, others the other. But I would suggest certainly trying both and just understanding, all right, this is how much of my time it took me to do this online sales process and this is the money I was getting for it. So, okay, that's a...$1,000 for a shoot and it took me three seconds to click that button versus maybe I get$1,500, maybe I get$2,000 for this in-person sales session. And all in all, it's probably taken me about three hours of working with them. So, you know,$1,000 for three seconds or$1,500 for, you know, that's$500 an hour, which is great money, but is it as good as the other way? And now what can I do with that time instead? Can I shoot more couples? So instead of that four hours of in-person sales, can I run more mini sessions? more families, more online sales. Just make sure you are spending the time looking at the opportunity cost of doing one way instead of the other.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's tough because I think the portrait business has had a tough rap because of history. But, you know, people tend to expect to not pay for anything until they've seen the results in the portrait world. Whereas the wedding world, they invest in you to be there forever because it's a big risky thing, whereas a lower risk for them to come in. So they don't expect to pay up front. And that history is just thick through the industry. And I don't know of many people who've broken that successfully unless they've got a great name. So they end up having to rely on, you know, high markups and that sort of thing and low upfront charging. And I think that's a bit, that's really sad that they're in that world because what, I mean, of course I'll say that because it means they buy less of our stuff. I get that. I get what the listeners might be coming to their head. But in reality, you are the person they should be buying. They should be buying your skill at making them look great and not the thing at the end that you've made from it, which is important, you know, because I have to say that. But it's an important part of the process. But you're the person that actually makes it happen. And it's tough. And I think that's perhaps where in-person sales have become important is or remain important in that world because you've got to kind of talk those people up in those price ranges. And that doesn't always feel good for the everyday photographer. And there's a lot of portrait photographers who don't have the chutzpah, the internal fortitude to ask for those bigger amounts of money.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that could be the difference between staying in business or not. So, you know, they've got to decide what's more important. If that's the avenue that they're going down and they're committed to doing that, then, yeah, what do I value more? The discomfort of doing this but having a business that actually allows my family to be sustained and provides us with a future or, no, I'm not going to do that because I'm not comfortable doing it and now I can't continue with this and whatever other ramifications that that has in their lives. But I'm also... not coming at this not from a point of experience having never been a portrait photographer doing that so um you know feel free to disregard everything i've said
SPEAKER_03:well it's i'm the same because my knowledge of it is is it's not overly current and it's fine to say these things but if you don't want to do weddings but you like photographing people and corporate is like you know, if you want to work like someone like Rowena Meadows and be photographing, you know, families at their messiest and all that, it's tough finding a model that's going to work for you. It's just tough. But I still think regardless of all of that, and because I'll go back to the thing we were discussing in the first place with this, was the benefit of adding the online sales to it is enormous. And also having the system where perhaps in a year's time they get reminded that, they've done this shoot or maybe at christmas time they get reminded that this shoot happened here's the anniversary here's the here's the christmas cards whatever it might be as the add-on sale uh it's an opportunity at infinitum if not at least to get them booked again in a year's time to catch up
SPEAKER_02:100 absolutely um i mean i i would certainly be recommending to you Always be using automations, whether or not you're doing in-person sales or not, but either in conjunction or exclusively with the automation. So you're either doing it exclusively, so all of your sales are through that, or in conjunction with in-person sales, so that they still are getting those reminders to, as you say, to book again or to have their little anniversary sale. But, I mean, it would be madness to me to not use automations automated tools that are already capitalizing on the way our minds work when it comes to purchasing. Post-purchase dissonance, when it comes to urgency and scarcity, these are already set up to be effective. I know I'm not going to sit down and remind myself, okay, now I've got to send a three days until this deal ends email and I'll just write this email again from scratch and I'll create a little banner for the gallery that goes up and another little countdown timer. I'm not going to do that every time, okay, because then I've got to do another one a day before and then another one on the day. Like that's an automation that makes no sense not to utilize it. So, yeah, there's just this incredible benefit there. And as you're talking about, you know, people deciding what other forms of photography that they want to do. It just allows them very quickly to start. And then you can see, is this something I want to do? Am I making an income from this? Do I enjoy it? If you've got that barrier to entry there of needing to start, create a studio, get all the samples, put that together, not to mention the capital expenditure probably of providing a room like that, it's a lot more difficult to begin. Now I'm actually in this position myself where we're heading back to Ibiza for three months for the winter and we're considering a move over there. And so I'm like, all right, if I touch down or if I move over there, what business would I want to start? And for me now, it probably is something that would be along the lines of a portrait business aiming for obviously print sales. And I'm kind of enjoying actually the idea of that challenge and getting into that. So that's kind of like sport for me, right? Because I know there's just incredible information out there. There's amazing people who are kicking ass all over the shop doing things that are replicable for anyone else. So I know the tools are available. There's nothing really that should stop me from creating a profitable business.
SPEAKER_03:Can I just... You know, we're getting close to an hour and I like to sort of be, you know, not over take your time and that kind of thing. But I did want to ask you, you're talking about, okay, this is not lighting up my life. I'm not quite sure of the term, but it doesn't light me up, whatever it is. I need to do something different and change. Change is a really interesting thing. Sometimes you close the door on something that, was good because you think the other side is going to be better and some aspects of the thing that was good was that sucked and that's the reason why you needed to shut the door on it. I think a lot of people don't want to go through that change because they are afraid that what they're going to is something that's the worst version of what they've got going on now. How do you work that out in your head? I'm sorry, these are big existential questions.
SPEAKER_01:No, you're right, man. You seem
SPEAKER_03:to be right on the pulse with a lot of thinking about this and you seem to be pretty clear. And this is something I struggle with and I know a lot of the world struggles with it. Can you talk a little bit about that and that sort of risk-taking change, which is, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Well, you're absolutely right. So change is uncomfortable, okay? Everyone's going to Everyone's going to find that. I mean, I think it's literally hardwired to our brains to find change uncomfortable. So in order to get through that discomfort of change, we really need a vision of our future that's so crystal clear that we can stick to to get through that emotional journey. So there is an emotional cycle of change. So basically, like you said, will typically get worse before it gets better. So you'll think, oh, I'm going to try this change because I think it's going to have a great impact on my life. And you've got this, you know, uninformed optimism at the beginning and then pretty quickly you turn to informed pessimism where you're like, oh, okay, that's actually harder. It's not actually working as well for me as I expected. And this might be outsourcing, working with your first virtual assistant, trying a new, I don't know, in-person sales or whatever. And that's typically at that point where most people will give up and go back to where they were before and why they'll continue repeating everything for the rest of their lives. But it is important to understand that that does start to get better the more you stick to that change. And that's why it really is important to have a very clear vision of what you would like your life to be on the other side of that. Why are we making that change? Why is it important? Why is it important that I stick to this until I start to get informed optimism? Like, okay, now I've been working with this a little while now and I'm actually starting to see some benefits until finally you're at a point of succeeding. But yeah, it is uncomfortable. We biologically fear change.
SPEAKER_03:But uninformed optimism is where it all starts. Yeah. And you're going, it's going to be better on the other side.
SPEAKER_02:I'm going to make so much money. This is going to be so much easier. I'm going to have so much time on my hands. It's just going to work seamlessly. This will be perfect.
SPEAKER_03:So some of those things have to be true. Some of those things have to actually be true.
SPEAKER_02:Because you'll be hearing it from people who are saying those things. So you're probably hearing it from me right now, talking about how much more beneficial my life is thanks to automation and outsourcing. And so you will, hey, that's your uninformed optimism because you haven't started that process yet. And then you might begin and you're like, God, it's actually, it's quite difficult to, you know, set these automations up in pick time or to, you know, start selling albums because now I've got to, you know, find them and design them or, you know, start doing in-person sales. That's that, okay, informed pessimism. This is difficult, harder than I thought it would be. So that's when you're like, all right, do I continue? Basically, yes. Yeah, you're left with a decision to reach burnout or to persevere.
SPEAKER_03:It's a tough thing. So tell me how that applies to Ibiza. What's the– you've got obviously a family. Your in-laws are there. Correct, yeah. So there is a lovely support network there. It's a fascinating place culturally, you know, much richer for time-wise than we have– not time-wise but as in history-wise– you know, a country that's rich in history and that's fascinating as well. What else is making you feel like this is the thing that's going to be great for Rick?
SPEAKER_02:My wife and daughter's happiness for me is always paramount. So Nadia, she's had nine years in Australia with us here, pretty cold climate. Obviously, you grew up in Ibiza, you're kind of used to 30 degrees, hot and sunny every bloody day, close to the beach. So it'd be nice to give her an avenue to feel herself again, right? So how... How she feels when she's over there is very different to how she feels when she's here. So I really want to be able to do that for her. But then going on there, I do like a challenge of actually starting a business out, doing something that I haven't done before. I was in that position when I first started my wedding photography business and I think I did an okay job at it. So I'm kind of keen to see, all right, what else can I find out about myself? You know, I've been doing this for eight or nine years now. And so to do another 10th year, I'm not learning a whole lot more about myself, but to change that scenario gives me an opportunity to go, all right, here's something else that I can learn, I can improve. find i can connect with um something different there to light me up and i really like i mean in in the portrait photography um print sales world i like the the opportunity of that kind of efficiency where i can go uh walk down to the end of my road to a beach do a do a session maybe an underwater session with that with someone basically trying to create one hero shot that i want them to print up massive in their home um And when you're going with that purpose, that's why we're doing this shoot. It's so that you can have a big print. That's the purpose. There's a huge mark up there, limited amount of my time and high rewards because I really love that kind of photography. And even just the marketing game, where I'm going to find the people. It's always very fun. How will I be found? How will I provide the service? I enjoy those challenges. I enjoy making it work. And yeah, looking forward to that change. But I know when I started out, it will be harder before it gets easier. But there's a future version of myself that is doing it and is doing it well. He's out there and I will reach that if I want to.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's killer. That's so good. That's great to hear. So tell me, has photography itself, the art form, has that grabbed a chunk of your heart? I can see that you like making and building things. That's a big, that's what makes Rick tick. But has you got a bit of your heart grabbed by photography and photographically, artistically, are you finding ways of getting that expression happening. Is that a thing for you? Um,
SPEAKER_02:so I guess I've always kind of described myself, uh, as I guess I'm a, I'm a person who runs a photography business. Like I don't often feel like I associate with fantastic photographer artists. Um, a lot of my mates are, and I wish I was like that. Like they're, they really do have a beautiful eye and amazing touch. And I can see it's something that's, that's in them that I don't have, but I, um, I'm good at using photography as a tool for that business. And I love the impact it has. Believe me, the photos I have of my daughter, of our trips growing up, it's incredibly important to me. But I've never, I don't know, I guess identified as an artist in that way.
SPEAKER_03:I get that. I get that. I mean, sometimes it sneaks up and bites you on the bum and you find yourself down that path, but it can be distracting as well. But I can see you've got your thing. Now, your daughter's eight, isn't she? Yeah. Or thereabouts. What a great time to think about uprooting and doing something different. That's so cool.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And look, thank you so much for your time today. I'm so impressed and blown away. I didn't realise how much Rick there was to see and learn about. And I think, you know, you brought so much to benefit us that I don't know if you– I know there was no intention, but I'm so grateful because what you are doing is you just– You know, it's helped us enormously. We've got a lot of help over the years from different things. Instagram's been really great for us over the years. But then there's people like yourselves that just make it all hum and happen and make it more possible for people. So, you know, from the bottom of Kate and my heart, we are incredibly grateful for what you do for us. It's impressive. And thank you so much for your time today.
SPEAKER_02:Paul, I really appreciate that, mate. I know everything I do on that realm is all inspired by your incredible work and how I can make sure that your work can be in as many hands as possible and as many lounge rooms and bedrooms as possible. So without seeing your products and then wanting these to– be in the homes of my couples I never would have got there. So, yeah, basically always just riding on the coattails of incredible people like yourselves.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Aren't we all? Aren't we all? Everything that came before us. Well, look, again, thank you and I look forward to seeing what happens next. I look forward to helping you work out your lab side of things in Ibiza. I'm sure that we'll find a great lab in Spain. I know I've got a bunch of contacts around the world and that will be awesome and I know you're going to, whatever it happens, if you still stay in Healesville, it's
SPEAKER_02:going to be a great thing. Yeah, absolutely a possibility as well. And I'm looking forward to finding out where I'm going to be this time next year.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. Well, I'm going to watch because I'm more change phobic than most people. I'm the man who's stuck in nostalgia and everything. So I look at you like going, oh, my God, there's another world out there. It's awesome to see. It's inspiring.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate that, Paul. I hope not to disappoint you, mate.
SPEAKER_03:You wait. You wait. All right then. See you soon.
SPEAKER_02:Ciao, buddy.
UNKNOWN:Ciao.