Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 42 - Rowena Meadows interview
This week Rowena joins Paul for a bunch of pointy questions aiming to find out how she has developed her family documentary photography work.
Rowena works from Melbourne, but is regularly invited to shoot around Australia and overseas. Her unique style engages in the righteous struggle to bring a warm reality to the photography of family life.
You are going to love listening to this, make sure visit Rowena’s website, those pictures will stay in your mind forever.
https://www.rowenameadows.com.au
G'day listeners, welcome back to the Atkins Labcast. On this episode I interview Rowena Meadows, who's a family photographer, a family documentary photographer, working out of Melbourne. She does a bit of international work as well. Her work caught our eye a few years ago actually, because she's really into showing people as they are. She wants to celebrate the mess of life, the mess of parenthood. And her stuff is stunning. My mum has one of her jigsaw puzzles up in cans that she's made and there's so much joy in her photography. I'm sure you're going to love this interview. Enjoy it. Hey Rowena. I just had the most lovely experience whilst we were waiting to record here. You did. Watching you and your beautiful daughters get some tickets to Taylor Swift, which was pretty insane. This was going to be the thing you had to do today besides listen to me ask you uncomfortable questions.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, which one do I like better?
SPEAKER_01:So did you get the tickets?
SPEAKER_00:We got tickets to Sydney. So we're in Melbourne, but we were getting some Sydney tickets as a backup and hoping to get some Melbourne ones this afternoon. So either way, we are not going to be experiencing extreme devastation today. I
SPEAKER_01:saw the emotional load because there were tears everywhere. Real live tears, not recorded here though for the viewers, but there was real live tears as to what happens when you get close or get the tickets,
SPEAKER_00:huh? Yes, my daughter has been manifesting and doing candlelight vigils in preparation for getting tickets. So the emotional load was heavy and intense and it is now lightened a little. So yes, I'm breathing a little easier now. I'm glad you got to see that.
SPEAKER_01:I did. It was the best. It was the best. It was so
SPEAKER_00:beautiful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was cute. So tell me, how old are your daughters?
SPEAKER_00:13 and 15. Yeah. In the thick of it, in the trenches, in the teenage trenches.
SPEAKER_01:In the teenage trenches. And so you're at the age, because we were just talking about my kids being, you know, five years beyond. Yeah. And I'm not getting them to Taylor Swift concerts at the moment, but your role at the moment is, is to make sure that they get to these things and be the person. Because you said you had a pact running. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm a Swifty as well. I'm full Swifty. Yeah, so we went in 2018, the three of us, when they were 8 and 10, and it was an uncool to go with your mum. And we had a pact after that that we would always go to Taylor Swift together. And when this tour was announced, they both kind of, like, came to me and said, well, we're going to go with our friends. Like, yeah, they were breaking the pact. And I felt the rejection of that and got comfortable with it, as you have to do. But, yes. Because they've got tickets in Sydney, they're stuck with me. So the Swifty gang of three is back together. Otherwise
SPEAKER_01:you would have been sitting in the car park.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. No, no, I was already making plans to go with other people. I don't need them to go. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:I know, but you kind of do, don't you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would have preferred it, but I, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Looking across and seeing the light that's emanating from them when all that stuff's going down is, It's pretty cool,
SPEAKER_00:isn't it? It's a cool memory, yeah. It really is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It really is. It really is. So you've spent a lot of your time– well, I haven't really introduced you. You're Rowena Meadows. Where are you based,
SPEAKER_00:Rowena? I'm in Melbourne.
SPEAKER_01:You're in Melbourne. And what would you describe your photographic practice as?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, jeez. A bit of a mishmash, train wreck, shit show. Yeah. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01:Shit show is fine. You can use those words. This is an explicit podcast, but I don't understand where shit show comes from.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I don't really know. I don't really understand it. It's not really something I could articulate or teach, but it comes from basically a desire to document things it comes from a desire to reframe the way people see their everyday ordinary family life and particularly to help them recognize the enormity of the caregiving load of parenthood, to appreciate how weird kids are and to help, basically to help that unseen caregiving work of family life be seen and help people feel uh help people understand the value of it because you just do it all day you're mindless you don't register it um but understanding the depth of your role as a caregiver and a parent is so important and i often people don't recognise it until they see visual proof of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and you were kind of, like as a parent, you said to me before the interview that you felt you were a young parent, that this
SPEAKER_00:sort of stuff, you don't expect this stuff. I felt like I had my kids too young. I just mean I wish I had sowed my wild oats a little longer.
SPEAKER_01:Well, but this is the same thing because your understanding of what parenthood was is You know, you don't get it when you go in. And when people say to you, you know, you always try and tell people who are childless, you go, try and explain it to them. And it's not a smart thing to try and explain. I
SPEAKER_00:would never.
SPEAKER_01:So what you had in your own insides as to what was going to happen when you had children, as you said, people don't understand the load that the caregiver takes on when they do that. So, yeah, I mean, it's as brilliant as it is difficult, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Parenting? Yeah. Yeah, I think maybe it's even more difficult than it is brilliant. I don't know if they're exactly– depends on the day. Well, I've
SPEAKER_01:got to say, yeah, it depends on the value you put on those moments like– when you see the tickets being got. Like if that value is enormous, it might balance itself because the rest of it is a grind.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so the grind is what I want to elevate in value.
SPEAKER_01:Ah, right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, that
SPEAKER_00:makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Because there is no peak of joy or pride in that. It's just you don't even really pay attention to it. So I want to pay attention to it for people and, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Where did you first think, come with the idea that you wanted to talk about the grind in a storytelling way, in a visual way for people?
SPEAKER_00:So around 2015, 2016, I started, I saw some people doing the day in the life type photography session. So how does
SPEAKER_01:that work? Just explain.
SPEAKER_00:I used to do– so when I started, I would do 12 hours. So I would go from like 7 to 7 with the family. And it hasn't really changed except I do a few less. I usually do more like 7 hours now. I'm older. But I would do 7 to 7 and just go– Documentary style, I would never direct or interfere with the environment. I would go to the supermarket, swimming, practice, visiting relatives, park, whatever the family's ordinary routine is. That's the thing. I didn't want them to do anything that was outside their ordinary day because that's where you get the most honest behavior. So whatever was a regular, ordinary day, and I would just be there. Not so much a fly on the wall. I don't really see myself as a fly on the wall photographer. I do get– I basically insert myself in the family system. I find that the more I interact and talk and be curious, the quicker– more quickly people stop caring about my camera.
SPEAKER_01:Because the reality is you put a camera in an environment and– People are performing in one way or another. That's right. So you need a few hours. So your thought is to get adapted quickly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So if you're, yeah, so if you are talking and interacting, you become, you make people more comfortable and they become more accepting of you. But there's always a couple, there's always, some people take 10 minutes to get over the camera, some people take two hours. Often I don't use a lot of photos from the first hour. because I'm more just sort of asking questions about people and their relationships and how the family works as a system, just to try and get an idea in my head of what matters about this story. So now I do that in around six to seven hours. And I don't really do, I won't do shorter because I don't trust myself to create work that is that honest and real in a shorter period of time, even though it would probably be better for business because a lot of people don't, you know, it's a niche thing. A lot of people aren't down for such a long session with a stranger. But I have tried to do shorter and it just doesn't generate the same
SPEAKER_01:story. The yard traits
SPEAKER_00:that you've been doing? So I have two services. the whole day or the like half an hour yard trait. So, and nothing in the middle.
SPEAKER_01:So how do you get up to speed in the yard trait? Do you, how do you research it? So, you know, cause we've had the experience coming to Adelaide and my, my sister-in-law was like, yeah, let's just do something. And I'm thinking, okay, I know the place fairly well, but you know, their house, but I'm just trying to think how would you then walk into a situation and get up to speed as to, because can I say, just, Before we go any further, there's one thing that I see through all of you. Oh, there's lots of things I see through your work. But light and the way you see light and chase light is astounding. And that's the one thing that connects through them all. Now, I don't know how you can walk into someone's place unknown and find that and find the place. And I suppose you're not looking for a nice place. You're looking for chaos as well, aren't you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So… Firstly, if there's an important spot in the yard that means something, like if there's a garden they've planted together or if there's a special tree or there's some... I don't know. The first question I'll ask, is there anything of meaning? So I'm always looking for meaning making. If there isn't, then I'll just choose the spot that has the best light or where the background is kind of not going to interfere with... the focus on on the people um but it's very quick I'll just go in I'll choose my spot I'll ask them what they do what they're into um are there any um and then I'll say are there any items in the house that are sentimental or meaningful like I did this family once and they had this cane basket of three people who had died their ashes were in it what And, and I, yes. And I, and they said, oh, we could bring the ashes out. And I'm like, well, who's that? Who's died in there? And they're like, oh, it's grandma, this and that. And I'm like, well, that should be in the photo. So we have like the dead people's ash, three dead people's ashes. Like, so I'll, it's very collaborative and people will, it's, it's really play. It's very playful. So I'll, you know, depending on what someone's job is or if kids have a passion or a hobby, I'll say, well, go on, bring your cricket bat out. Bring your cricket bat out. It's called a
SPEAKER_01:cricket stick, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Cricket stick would be easier. But, yeah, helping people locate what are meaningful objects that we can bring into the frame so they can in the future remember who they were at that point. point in time is just so much fun the trick is not to let it get out of control though so some people like bring their whole house out and they're like oh this is from that trip we did 10 years ago and we bought this and so my job is to have it be meaningful and quirky and rich in storytelling but not to get not to the point where It's just a lot of stuff and some people with, you know what I mean? So often I'll pull it quite a fair bit back because I don't want it to step into a comedic kind of thing, although I do want it to be subtly funny. And
SPEAKER_01:you know how to do that. You know how to do the comedy. I think
SPEAKER_00:your
SPEAKER_01:work is really on point with that, your personal work.
SPEAKER_00:It's all funny. All the weirdness and hard stuff is just hilarious to me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so, you know, that sense of what you're putting in the scene is important, but it can get– I can see– I can imagine it can be overwhelming. I did have a question about your clients. Looking through your portfolio, there seems to be some very intentional people in their style and the way they live.
SPEAKER_00:You could say that,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. And I don't know whether that's just Melbourne people who are just cool and focused on living well or whether it's– the people that are attracted to your work, that are attracted to your site. I don't know how it works with you, but they're really interesting subjects. And I don't know many people like that around here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I don't either, although I've made friends with lots of those people. I hope it is that when you show that work, it attracts those people. But If someone's booking me, there has to be a certain kind of comfort with– there has to be a certain kind of prioritization of story over aesthetic, over looking pretty. Or
SPEAKER_01:looking quirky.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I want people to care more about the storytelling than they care about whether they actually feel like they look pretty. So people– They kind of have to surrender that. I find people don't book me if they are after that pretty light at sunset looking lovely in their best clothes. Those people don't tend to book me or I would screen them out pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think your Instagram, I mean where people find you I'm sure would be predominantly Instagram. Yeah. And I think when, you know, your feed is directing them in that you can see the kind of people you want to photograph and it works. I mean, I'm sure you'd have people there who think they are those people or that they're going to hack it a
SPEAKER_00:bit. Maybe they want to be those people. Yeah, I think there are people who want to be like that and maybe having a photo like that is an experiment to try out the weirder aspects of their personalities. Yeah. I think that's
SPEAKER_01:the joy of looking through your portfolio is that, you know, you can see there are distinctly different people being represented and you can see what they're in the middle of. And I love the unhappy faces in there. I've always had this thing with a baby or a child having a tantrum, crying. It makes me smile and I don't know– well, I do know why because I know there are things to be upset about and there's things not to be upset about. And it's so beautiful when they're upset about the little things, that the second layer of fairy skirt isn't the right one. You know, speaking from experience with my two. It is, yeah, it's fascinating seeing that. I did listen to you because you have some stuff there about yourself. I know you don't particularly like to have the spotlight on you and I'm sorry and I know this interview is uncomfortable for you because you You know, you're a very– you work for other people and you want to tell their stories. But I listen to you say to yourself– and if I get this quote wrong, fix it for me, would you? Oh, well. I'm trying to communicate the value in what I do in telling people because it– here we go– how it helps me make sense of my own life because I'm– I use photography to make sense of my own life and the storytelling in that. Now, I've fumbled that like there's no tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00:Can you correct me on that? You completely fucked that, yeah. I can't read
SPEAKER_01:my own handwriting. That's the problem. And I've got my– you'll see if you– and the video, I'm holding my notes out.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I'm slipping my head back. That's okay. I think you've got the essence across maybe. We'll
SPEAKER_01:fix it then, woman.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I can't remember saying that. I think what I was saying there was I'm trying to communicate the value in how photography allows me to make sense of my own life and to offer that service to other people, that they could make sense of their own life and themselves and the people in it by photography. So, yeah, like I've often like– photograph things I'm struggling with, either in like a self-portrait or in a portrait of my kids. And there's something about having a struggle and taking a photo of it somehow, even if it's not a literal representation of that struggle. If you can find a way to photograph the thing you struggle with, there's something about that that sort of allows you a separation Like once it becomes a photo or a physical print or even a photo on a screen, there's just a small bit of separation that allows me to see it as something that's with me rather than something that is me. So that kind of comes from my psychology background a little bit. In narrative psychology, there's an idea that the person is not the problem, the problem is the problem. And the goal of the therapist is to separate, to externalize the problem. And so I find that photographing struggles or problems or parts of myself that I'm not loving, it sort of separates me from it and allows me to move on from it and recognize it's not My whole identity, it's just a thing that is with me for now. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:It's interesting.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I was thinking that separation and, you know, we've all got issues to deal with and there's always things that cause us to react in a certain way. And, of course, in many cases– it's not what happens to us. It's how we react to it is everything. And, and there's a lot of recent discussion and research on trauma that it's not that you are a traumatized person. It's just that you've reacted to something that's happened to you, whether it be minor or major, that's caused a traumatic, you know, feeling. And that feeling is what we're trying to, you know, reconcile and manage and be better at because they're the thing. That's the thing that drives our stress levels and, stuff that makes us upset and crazy and do dumb things and react in dumb ways.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a disentangling process.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I find photography as disentangling like that. It creates that room. Yeah, when I can see it in the external world, it's not just an experience or a thought in my head. That very small little bit of separation allows movement. Is it
SPEAKER_01:fast enough though? Is it fast enough? Because what I experience is the cause and effect is so lightning fast, you know, that, you know, I don't think I could slow down enough. Is it the slowing down by using a camera to try and tell that story that is part of the deal that
SPEAKER_00:creates effect? I think a really good example of this is my general struggle with motherhood. So... I've not been one of those mothers who, you know, was really glad to surrender to caring and giving up freedom. I mean, I know a lot of mothers aren't, but I really struggled with the weight of obligation. And I think that in a lot of ways photographing, every time I photograph the way someone mothers, I'm looking for... There's something healing for me in photographing the struggle of motherhood that heals my difficult relationship with it because I'll see things in the way she does it and I'll be like, well, I did all that. Why do I look at her and think she's incredible but I don't provide that same service for myself?
SPEAKER_01:Do you feel that, you know, there is like a thousand different ways to deal with these things or are we all in the same mess?
SPEAKER_00:We're all in the same mess. Yeah. Hope so. We're all in the same mess. Yes. It's funny how we, it's funny how our rules for interpreting other people's behavior is completely different to judging our own behavior. So I guess in a lot of ways, photographing other people's struggles and noticing my thoughts about other people's struggles, my next step is, well, why don't you extend that same, um, curiosity and kindness. Yeah. To your own, because it's the same, we're all doing the same shit. Um,
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's really interesting. Do you think that your clients, knowing what you've seen and what you've been witness to, look to you wondering about your judgment of their situation as being the photographer who's seen, known and seen what's going on, therefore they're feeling like, it sounds awful, but forgiven by you someone who knows more and seen more and accepted by that? Is that what's happening?
SPEAKER_00:I hope so. I really, really hope so. I think that even if a kid does something horrible when I'm there, I will actually say, like I'll say, oh, that was fascinating what just happened. What do you think was going on? And then we'll kind of maybe brainstorm what happened, like what need was that kid trying to get filled by doing that thing and then they'll see that I don't just see that naughty act as a naughty act but that I'm trying to make sense of it with them to to understand it more deeply and then they might appreciate the photo of that naughty act more because it's not just this thing that their bad kid did it's a thing that a kid did who was trying to be seen or um So one small example of this, I was photographing a family of three kids the other day and the oldest daughter gave the finger to the little sister. So the mum had asked the older daughter. What's the age
SPEAKER_01:difference?
SPEAKER_00:I think it was like nine and four or something. Perfect. So the mum had asked the older daughter to. do something, pay attention or play with her or something. And the older daughter didn't want to do it. But she didn't want to say that. When the mum turned away, she just, like, gave the finger to the little sister as in to say, I won't be doing that. Just so you
SPEAKER_01:know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so you know that's not going to happen. But it's silent and mum didn't see or– Yeah, so then it came out, the little one told the mum and the mum got mad at the nine-year-old and I'm in there trying to make sense of that. And I said to her, I said that, like, don't we in some ways want to teach our daughters and sons that if they don't feel like doing something that they can have a voice? The thing is she didn't have the language to say, you know what, mum? I'm really engaged with this task I'm doing here. I don't really want to go and play with her right now because this is really important to me. Nine-year-olds don't have that language. Yeah. But she did have this language.
SPEAKER_01:Rowena gives me the finger.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Just for those who
SPEAKER_00:are listening. Is that going to be part of the promotional package? Well, maybe
SPEAKER_01:we should do that. It's a promotional package. I agree. Well, last time Rick Liston had his dog licking his own butt. That's
SPEAKER_00:really hard to, yeah, I'm not going to be able to beat that. I could get my bird down here to bite my ear or something, but otherwise I only have the finger.
SPEAKER_01:The finger's fine.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. So then I said to the mum, like the alternative to that is kids, raising kids who just like are people pleasers. Like say, yes, mum, I'll do that. I'll abandon the thing I want for that. If we're doing that too much, we're teaching kids to prioritize self above other. That's nice in lots of situations, but you don't want that message to always be self above other. Here's an example of how a small act of giving the finger actually turns into a conversation between me and the and the parent about the meaning behind that. So it's never– so to answer your question, I hope people don't feel judged because I am just genuinely curious to understand the motivations behind behaviour.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I didn't mean it in that–
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I know, I know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was just thinking as someone who– like I know when I go and see my psychologist and I talk to her, I feel that she has seen everything. Yeah. It's
SPEAKER_00:a vulnerable place to be, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then she can say– and I, therefore, listening to her, what she has to say to me, means that she has some authority. Now, you're not– People aren't engaging you as a psychologist, although I'm starting to wonder that if this is actually part of your gig, whether they know what's happening or not. Tell me about that because I know you've got a degree, what, six-year degree in psychology?
SPEAKER_00:So 15 years ago, forever ago, I was a psychologist for, yeah, like a hot minute. Hot minute, six years? Yeah. No, no. Well, I did the six-year study and then it actually only worked for like six months. And it wasn't the right time for me for that.
SPEAKER_01:Hang on. Why did you stop after six months?
SPEAKER_00:Complicated reasons. But that's when I had my first daughter. And that was just I didn't have anything in me to give at that point. But I always knew I would come back. And I'm halfway through a Master's of Counseling in Relationship Therapy right now. So, in a year and a half, I'll be having two jobs. I'll be doing relationship therapy and this. So, yeah, while I don't want my photography sessions for people to perceive me as being therapeutic or whatever, I do hope that my knowledge in that area just helps people reframe the way they see themselves and their relationships. And that's similar to what a therapist would be hoping to do. Just
SPEAKER_01:using a different tool, like using a more subtle, I don't know, I think the photographs that you're delivering for people and the subtle way you're doing it, I think it has a bigger effect, a broader effect than it could ever have, a one-on-one session with a therapist who the person might, well, they most likely will take a different tact and be better, feel like they've lived a better life from there and therefore have better influence on people. But what your images are doing are telling a wider audience about that story.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's
SPEAKER_01:the heroic move in the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's a strong word. Yeah, but there is a witnessing, the large-scale witnessing, particularly of parenthood, I hope is validating for other people, for the wider audience. Because there's just so much perfection in families and parenthood on social media that we don't need to see more of that or amplify it. I
SPEAKER_01:agree. Do you feel that your work needs to be rougher at times and a little less put together?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So how are you going to tackle that? I mean, I think that's, you said yes so quickly, I figure you're thinking about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's hard because sometimes I, it's hard because I'm still a, like it's still a business. So I still have to, people have to want to pay me.
SPEAKER_01:Have you worked out your hourly rate? Oh,
SPEAKER_00:I wouldn't want to know that. It's really nothing. But again, I don't want to, I don't want to just shoot rich people either. So like I've, Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Trust me, you don't want to. It's not a thing.
SPEAKER_00:I never want to put my fee up because, yeah, I mean, like I charge as little as I can because I don't want my clientele to just be, you know, people in perfect houses with lots of money. So, I mean, I try to, like I always tell people, do not clean your house for me. Like I want to see your dirty dishes in the sink. I want to see, you know, completely unkempt yards, like because there's so much storytelling in mess. But, again, there's a limit to the vulnerability that people are willing to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You don't want to put it on by leaving the sink full, sorry. That's what I'm trying to say. You don't want to– Because not everybody, I mean, people do leave dishes in the sink, but they don't always live that way. It's not for everybody.
SPEAKER_00:No, but the bulk of my clients, I'll walk in and I can see like piles of washing and shit everywhere and I'm like, cool, this is a very good sign.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And it's great that you tackle it with colour and a lot of people would say, you know, you speak to photojournalists about, because you're doing photojournalism of a kind. You're doing photojournalism. I didn't mean to say that. You're doing photojournalism. What's your, what, people choose to do is they choose to use black and white to keep things simple and keep it about the people. But somehow you make it work with color, which is very rare and actually quite like quite advanced techniques. And I mean, if you look at Trent Park, who's, you know, our Australia's, you know, only Magnum photographer and he, he uses black and white to keep the, I mean, he does use color as well, but it's, it's not his thing. It's a traditional thing to use black and white with this sort of stuff. What happens with you? Do you have this thing with colour that, I don't know, it just
SPEAKER_00:works so well? I actually don't really understand. I actually don't really know the answer to this. I only know that it just doesn't feel like me most of the time. Like pretty much every shoot I'll do for funsies, I'll convert some of it to black and white and it just– I think there's like one shoot I've done in the last five years that I– felt comfortable in black and white. I don't know, color is just so important to me. Color is just such a big part of who I am. It just wouldn't feel like my work if it didn't have color in it. And I mean, I use color to make a lot of my decisions for how to frame up photos. Like sometimes color makes the whole decision about the frame and whatever's happening in it is secondary. So I also love the torture of getting the colours right. Like it takes me forever. Yeah, it's not easy for me. I don't have presets or anything like that. I hand edit everything and just like kill myself over the colours. And I like that. I
SPEAKER_01:like that challenge. Us here since, you know, 50, 60 years when color came out, there's no presets that are reliable. They are for a certain image at a certain time with a certain exposure, the right kind of lens and feel more sensor or whatever. Really, you have to respond to every image. You have to and you have to use your judgment on every image. It's just a thing. So, you know, you're in the world of reality. You've given yourself one of the hardest times. jobs you can do in photography and that's, you know, in all sorts of ways. So with– you don't have a background in art and colour theory. You've got a musical background as well, do you?
SPEAKER_00:No. No, I play piano but I don't have any training in photography or colour theory or anything. But I've always been obsessed with colour since I was little.
SPEAKER_01:Just buy stripy outfits and things like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and there's something about like earning. I mean, I always feel a bit bad in photography because it is such an instant medium, particularly digital. Well, digital photography is like where you, I don't know, like sometimes I feel like lesser of an artist because I didn't paint a picture or sculpt something and it just feels... I guess I just want to increase the difficulty factor by struggling with colour to feel like I earned.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I can't imagine you're doing it intentionally, that intentionally. And just because you haven't got the training, like that's just such shit, all that training stuff. Yeah. You know, it does help and it's fun and it gives you foundations and it will catch some people up. But when you've actually just got it and you can do it, that's great. You should be happy
SPEAKER_00:about that. I think it's more important to be able to talk to yourself about why your work isn't great. Like you can do all the courses you want, but if you're not willing to sit down after every single shoot and go, why is that shit? Why is that shit? Why did that miss the mark? Why did that miss it? That's good, but how could it have been better? Unless you are incredibly... I just think like hating on your work is the most important part of getting better.
SPEAKER_01:So what's the hardest thing about what you do as a photographer? I
SPEAKER_00:don't think I've ever been asked that before. Is it
SPEAKER_01:the post edits?
SPEAKER_00:It's– yeah, so– It's realising that in the edit you could tell multiple different versions of this story and realising the power of how your culling and sequencing is going to inform the way these people remember their lives in used to come. And then that means sometimes you have to lose your better photos, sacrifice photos, great photos for the honesty of the storytelling. So sometimes you're like, I'll look at a book that I've put together and I'm like, wow, that dad actually doesn't seem very hands-on. Whereas I remember him as very tender and caring, but the best photos I've chosen don't reflect that well enough. So I'll have to go back and lose some of those. What I know are technically, you know, good compositions or whatever for something that better reflects the person that I saw. And I'll always do that.
SPEAKER_01:That sounds like two things come to mind straight away. It sounds super dangerous.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because... Like I've always felt, and I gave a talk a while back, I think I called it the curatorial conundrum, to like a university group. I love that. Because I think the decision as a curator, the things you choose to let pass means you control the story and the narrative.
SPEAKER_00:And in this case, that made– shape their memories of that.
SPEAKER_01:It will.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There is a direct correlation between photography. It's been shown that
SPEAKER_00:there's
SPEAKER_01:books written about it between photography manipulating memories.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Yeah, so I'm so fascinated by that. I've read some books about that too. So like even if– like if you– the kids are the ones who are going to end up with this book, right? And I don't want to give them a book that– didn't reflect the depth of caregiving their dad showed them just because the photos look better.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So perhaps is this the hardest
SPEAKER_00:thing then? I think this is the hardest, yeah. Being responsible for the way people may remember themselves and the people in their lives. Not responsible but shaping it in some way, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean I think you are, sorry, but I do think you are actually responsible and–
SPEAKER_00:Well, maybe they'll never look at the book. Maybe they'll look at it once when I give it to them and, like, just chuck it. It'll go under the bed. Like, I don't want to assume that they're going to, you know. Yeah. And they've got their
SPEAKER_01:own million phone photos. Yeah. But
SPEAKER_00:they don't print those. They don't
SPEAKER_01:print those. No. And what you've done is they've brought you into their life for this sliver of what's going on. Mm. Yeah. and you've done what you've done. Look, it's not
SPEAKER_00:– I'm sorry. And often I'll go back year after year. So often I will– they'll have a whole catalogue of these.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, so this is your intention to be on the doorstep every year or so?
SPEAKER_00:Well, every second year, yeah. So I have a bunch of people who I've, yeah, shot three, four times now and they have that many books. So I do feel the weight of this collection of books is going to really inform the way they remember this period of time, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's such a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_00:It's so cool. Like, it's so lucky. It's the luckiest thing.
SPEAKER_01:I've always thought it is the ultimate goal of a family photographer to do that and maybe even cast backwards to the photos that they've collected from their parents and then incorporate them somehow, whether you're just digitising them and, you know, building it,
SPEAKER_00:adding to that story. Yeah, recreating them. Yeah, yeah. I love recreating photos from family of origin photos in the next generation. Yeah. And I've seen some, yeah. Have you seen, who is it? Her name's Carol someone. She holds up the photos from her childhood and superimposes it over the same scene. Yeah, you've seen that. Who is that? So
SPEAKER_01:beautiful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I
SPEAKER_01:do get the idea. And there's those wonderful things where families go back to places where and reset the photograph. You know, sometimes it's done comedic.
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes it's cheesy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sometimes it's cheesy, but it is also interesting. I'm also fascinated by how physical locations change too. So, you know, there's real value in all of that. But, yeah, the storytelling stuff. So let's just recap here. This is clearly a thing that makes your heart sing. It's not a thing that is like financially a brilliant idea, right?
SPEAKER_00:No, it's a very bad idea for that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:How do you go reconciling that with, you know, the household and contributing and all that kind of stuff? Is it a tough thing?
SPEAKER_00:So like often I would just take commercial jobs to make money.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, tell us about some of those as well after this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and just accept that this is not the place where you're going to make a great hourly rate. But the hustle is torture. Fucking
SPEAKER_01:hustle.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's why I decided to, that's why I'm studying, so that I can have a job two or three days a week and just take the photography work that makes me sing. Because I don't love doing commercial, I don't love doing commercial photography work. But that's what I've had to do to earn enough money.
SPEAKER_01:I did have a look around your commercial stuff on your website and I'll put a link in the show notes to it for people. But Medibank Private, I love the More Diesel Mechanics series. I
SPEAKER_00:love them. So they're a day in the life client. I've photographed them like four times, family shoots, and then they have me photograph their business, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's so gorgeous. Thank
SPEAKER_00:you. And I could see
SPEAKER_01:how that could work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So it's hard to get commercial work that is still my skill set because, I mean, I don't know how to use lights or anything. Like I've never shot in a studio in my life. I don't know how to do any of that. It has to be a client who values, yeah, documentary style on a storytelling. I'll take those commercial jobs. And more and more clients want that kind of thing. So that's promising as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, well, that's good. I think one thing that's happened over these last few years where the world is so disrupted from what we thought and hoped it would be is people are scrounging around for a new reality, something that they can put their fingers on. And, you know, understanding and valuing the mess, I don't think you can do anything else but, to look at the mess.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's engaging. People are nosy about mess. They want to see it in other people's lives. It's thrilling.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think there would be, like one of the things I watch with my family occasionally is, very occasionally I tell you this, Selling Sunset, which is the worst real estate agent crap show you could imagine and it's so fake, the whole thing. Now, you said you don't want to particularly photograph rich people, but I think there could be
SPEAKER_00:something
SPEAKER_01:in that. Irish people who might be thinking about booking. I think there might be something in it. I think there might be something. Like, if you could see through that armour. Yeah. You could do something that's really cool. If you could find someone who's ready to... to lift the veil a little bit because everybody is in a mess. Everyone's a write-off, you
SPEAKER_00:know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just got more
SPEAKER_01:money to thicken up the skin on it.
SPEAKER_00:So what would you want to see reflected in a very wealthy person's shoot?
SPEAKER_01:I would like to see the– I'd like to see people, their attempt– to make that look like everything's okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I would like to see that attempt. And the failure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'd like to see the, and because I think everyone would benefit from seeing that because, you know, there's an expression, I don't remember who I got it from. Oh, I know. Merlin Mann is a guy I like listening to. He said, and I'm sure it's not his original comment, but don't mistake your backstage for their onstage.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's the whole premise of why social media is damaging. That's what everyone is assuming, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Correct. And I think what you're doing is you're engaging in that fight of it. But I'm sure that people look at your work and go, oh, it's a little too nice, you know. Yes. It's a little bit too much. Is this actually real and how is that working? No, I believe it is. I don't think you– I don't think you're wanting to do that and curate a bad-looking story, like not a bad-looking story but a story so it looks bad or whatever. I think you're doing the right thing. But it does have that slight whiff of like it looks too good and it's too gorgeous, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I think, I mean, and some of that comes down to what I'm allowed to share as well. So, you know, some of my work doesn't, so often people have given me permission to, to show work on socials and website, but I'll still check with them if there's some photos that are particularly provocative or could be read in a more sinister way or whatever. I'm really respectful of people's wishes that way. So you're right, but, yeah, keep in mind that– A lot of stuff doesn't make it. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:of course.
SPEAKER_00:To the interwebs.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. No, you can't. And Instagram got to be Instagram. And, you know, you want people to like and subscribe or whatever they like and follow. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:God. It's awful,
SPEAKER_01:isn't it? It's awful. Hearing it coming out my mouth, it's just like.
SPEAKER_00:I know. Wash it out.
SPEAKER_01:My sister-in-law, Isabel, who when you were coming over, her two five-year-old boys, they just insert in their conversation, just don't forget to like and subscribe.
SPEAKER_00:It's just like a standard end to the paragraph.
SPEAKER_01:They walk off.
SPEAKER_00:And they're five. Oh, my
SPEAKER_01:goodness. The meta world that we're– these kids that are coming through, I'm really curious to see how they– you know, how they come out the other side.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm just worried about the loss of language. Like just– I mean that's a whole other story but just the way they– No, I'm not. But the way their vocabularies are shrinking because of emojis
SPEAKER_01:and
SPEAKER_00:–
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, well, I suppose so because there is nothing like– like occasionally I can read Shakespeare and get my head empty enough– to read it and feel it. Wow. But mostly there's other shit that gets in the way and you're just like, oh, it's too hard. Too noisy, yeah. Too hard. So, yeah, I agree with you. There is a little bit of that, but
SPEAKER_00:I– They'll find other ways to express themselves. Maybe they won't have as great a vocabulary as Shakespeare, but they'll find other ways to express themselves that we don't even know about. That
SPEAKER_01:we don't know about. That we don't know about. And look, what emojis, but– pictograms. What are pictograms? They're illustrations of how we're feeling and how much richer could this language be if we start producing ways of communicating that are not reliant on speaking English or Mandarin.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because maybe it feels safer in a picture than it does in a word. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I sit around and I have that time where I do worry about kids and I worry about these five-year-olds and what's happening, but I was listening last night as a family– well, not as a family, just Kate and I were watching Smartless, the touring– you know the podcast Smartless with Will Arnett, Jason Bateman and
SPEAKER_00:Sean
SPEAKER_01:Hayes, Sean from Will and Grace?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I don't know the podcast, but I know that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's a beautiful– It sounds really good. It's something special, but they've done a documentary, which I would suggest you might want to watch as a– as an introduction to it, you might not like it or whatever, but they shoot the, interestingly enough to our conversation, it's done in black and white, which is really unusual seeing like a four, five part series that's in black and white with, you know, Hollywood famous people type of thing in it. But at any rate, I digress. Just in parallel to this sort of worry we're discussing, well, I was bringing about, and you'd suggested that you're worried about loss of language, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, there's a lot being talked about, about, cancel culture and wokeness and all this kind of stuff which you know trust me where I'm going here by the way I'm
SPEAKER_00:I trust you it's a safe conversation
SPEAKER_01:yeah um they had on the guest last night so smart list is three guys only one of them knows who the guest they're going to interview is right so only one person is prepared and it's always lightly prepared for the interview but they're prepared so last night they're in New York at this episode and they had um Oh, God, his name just slipped my head. David Letterman. Right. David, who for a certain age group was a very important comedic news centre person who did these interesting interviews for late night TV. And he's got a great worshipping, a great base of worshippers who just love what he did. And he's been gone from the scene and he's a recluse now fairly well. He's got a beard like. a full-on biker Jesus beard, you know, a big thing, and he
SPEAKER_00:looks a bit
SPEAKER_01:wild and woolly. Yeah. And they said to him, what do you feel about cancer culture? Because, you know, what's happening is a lot of these older comedians are complaining about it because they
SPEAKER_00:feel like– Yeah, it's making comedy very hard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It is. But he said, we've had enough years of– laughing at people and at people's expense and they said i think we could let this run a bit longer and see where it goes and i feel the same way i i really trust what's happening with the world and what i trust our kids i trust how their brains are processing these things sure social media is super dangerous and sure a lot is going wrong uh self-image um self-harm. There's a lot of things which are there, but there was always a lot of things.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Every
SPEAKER_01:generation has had something.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I've really mixed feelings about TikTok and social media because I know that there's so much good in it, especially TikTok. There's a lot of things about politics and environment and psychology and that my girl's receive in these bite-sized little packages made for them that they wouldn't know about otherwise like you know the Julia Gillard misogyny speech so someone redid that and put on TikTok and like my girls coming to me saying oh how cool is the Julia Gillard speech because TikTok made it packaged it up and made it palatable for them and And that would, like me as a kid, when I was 10 or whatever, I wasn't finding out about things that happened in politics however many years ago because, you know what I mean? And they know about Ukraine and they know about, they know how it's given them language around consent and all sorts of things that they wouldn't receive because it's not been packaged up in this really nice little one-minute video or whatever. So totally appreciate this generation for the way the receipt of all that knowledge is shaping who they are. And I think that, you know, when I think about my parents' generation, they didn't have the emotional language. No one taught them the language to express themselves the way these kids did. are having literacy around their emotions. And a lot of that comes from what they're viewing on TikTok, funnily enough.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and talking to their friends about and dealing with and, you know, like the understanding of bullying at school. Yeah. You know, that's a real– rubber meets a road thing like they go to school and it's there and there's the mean girl thing the you know the unthinking guys the you know it's all It's all there and live. So them having the language to understand it's not right and to be people being called out at the highest levels for this stuff. Yeah. So that they know it's not okay. I can only think this is the right thing and I'm not.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's great. I think that part of it is great, really.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I don't believe in fate like, you know, we're destined for everything to be fine. But I really think there's a self-balancing system out there.
SPEAKER_00:I'm with you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It leaves me quite positive about everything. It doesn't mean it's not going to be hard now. It doesn't
SPEAKER_00:take away from it. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I feel quite hopeful in the same respect. But you still want to, you know, protect him from.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I know. I know. You know what? I look at it and some of this stuff that I need them to explain to me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I quite like being humbled that way.
SPEAKER_01:I know, and I want to be protected by them and their acceptance of me as a thing, as a, you know, and, you know, like it's all fine. Now, look, we're getting close to an hour, so I'm not going to– I like to keep these things so that people, like, come back and listen again, and which means we could probably record again one day when we've got other things to talk about.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, geez, don't push your luck,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. But I just thought, you know, one of the topics we might sort of head towards when sort of at the end of this little bit of time we've had together is I met you at the Refocus Retreat last year. It was last year, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00:God. Was it March last year? I think so. It feels like longer. It feels a lot longer than that. It feels longer, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Look, it really was– I'm not singing promoting the retreat. This is not a bit about that. I just wanted to say I went along to this thing and I– None of us had been to any conferences for a long time and my life had been conferences my entire life, dragging along to them as a toddler all the way through. I never felt comfortable in these places. I always felt comfortable when there were people that I knew because I make those connections and it's fine. But I really felt comfortable with you and talking to you and you have a very disarming way about you. Where did that come from and what is– it's a secret. I think it is a superpower of yours that allows you to walk into someone's family and then not be a fly on the wall, not be a producer of a documentary, to be a part of that environment but not removing things from that environment but enabling that environment to function and I think this is why your photography works so well where did it come from what the hell what's this I mean you worked your magic on me I felt straight away that we were friends for a long time I
SPEAKER_00:feel like you're talking about your magic so I feel like you're talking about Your superpower. Because I was incredibly anxious at that retreat. I'd never spoken publicly before. And your presence was of enormous sense of safety. You do that. And I'll tell you what it is that you do, and then you can decide. This is not
SPEAKER_01:about me. No,
SPEAKER_00:I'll just tell you anyway. So... She
SPEAKER_01:gives me the finger again for all those who are just listening.
SPEAKER_00:Deserved. Here's what it is that you do and you can decide if that's what I do.
SPEAKER_01:Is this because you're a psychologist and you know this shit?
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no, I don't know shit. So there aren't many people who when they're listening to you are listening to to understand as opposed to listening to respond. You can tell them immediately. Most people you speak to are listening purely to form a response. It doesn't make them a bad person, but they're listening to think about what will I say. Whereas you listen and you can tell your goal is understanding, just to understand what I'm saying. And that makes, that made me feel very like I matter. makes the person you're talking to really feel like they matter. And when you start to feel like you matter and that that person really is invested in understanding what you're saying, then you want to give more. Yeah, right. That's what you do. That's your superpower. And that's what I try to do. That's what I try to do. Yeah, I feel that's
SPEAKER_01:what you did. I don't know. I just– As I said, I was disarmed because it's very rare that you meet someone that, I don't know, it was really interesting. And I was not comfortable there. I was, well,
SPEAKER_00:for a start I was one of 90
SPEAKER_01:women. I was like four guys and 90 women. And I'm not comfortable.
SPEAKER_00:That's a tough place to be. It was. So I was immediately fascinated by how come you seem like you are are so treasured and that you belong so much with all these women. I don't know if I was invited
SPEAKER_01:with that. I think Kim worked it out when I was there that I was
SPEAKER_00:fairly safe. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, who is this guy that he has come into 90 women and– disarmed them all. Like that's really the, to use your word, it's really the only word that's appropriate, but.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, fuck. Okay. We can talk about something else now.
SPEAKER_00:So wait. So the answer is that you can just tell some people like while you're talking, they're thinking, but why, why, why? Right. And so I am, as someone tells me something, I need to understand more and why, and that's not a put on thing for my work. That's just like a, That's just how I am. That's just how
SPEAKER_01:I was born. I was wondering, and it's also maybe why you were born, but it's also perhaps what you went through. Now, you can say whatever you want to say, but I'll just say to open this topic up slightly that I spent a lot of time growing up with my grandparents because my parents ran this crazy business that I'm in.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And they did a great job of the business. The business is amazing. And they were great parents. But I spent a lot of time with the next generation. And the next generation mostly were, come on, we're busy. So come with me. We're going to meet the guy who owns David Jones or whatever. Or I'm going to park you at the airport in what was the Qantas lounge. It was back then at Anset. It was the Golden Wings lounge. You're going to sit there while I have a drink with the airport manager and And just talk to whoever comes by. You know, you'll be fine. And so I found myself in this really adult world where I had to like fit in and also wanted the respect of these people because my grandfather, who I respected greatly, both of them, had the ear of all these people and I thought, well, this is what you do. And so for me it was this how do I play in the next league thing And I think that's where I got it from. And like wrapped in that is also people-pleasing stuff because I want, you know, you want people to like you. I think we all do. So for me that's how it worked. And I don't think it's an overly healthy thing because you lose yourself a bit in trying to make yourself fit with other people. You know, you do. But where I'd like this conversation to be is for those who are listening to go, hey, and I don't want to be, mercenary about this but how can I use a bit of this in my own work because I think it works for you Rowena and your clients I think they go they let their guards down for you and I think that's a really important thing as a documentary portrait photographer like if you want to tell someone's story in one photo like if I know your thing is you do books you do long stories but you might one day pivot and go I want to tell this person's story in one photograph how do I do that There's got to be something in this for someone listening. What are your thoughts on that? I'm
SPEAKER_00:just pressuring you.
SPEAKER_01:So we've had to come back and re-record this last few minutes. Well, it was actually like 20 minutes, wasn't it, Rowena? Because I didn't notice the message popping up on my screen, which actually really it was popping up and it was rather large that said recording had stopped. And I think I was so enamoured with my big, long, waffly question.
SPEAKER_00:I love your capacity to be enamoured by your waffle. Yeah, well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I think in the moment I was enamoured, but in hindsight I was a bit embarrassed about it.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I don't think so. No, I don't think you should be. I think you can be proud because you did get there. You did get to a question. What
SPEAKER_01:was the question? You have to remind me. I'm just
SPEAKER_00:not sure. I think you said our viewers need to get something out of this.
SPEAKER_01:Because you've not told us any interesting
SPEAKER_00:information. The rest of this is drivel. So let's actually get to some content. How do you– I think you were asking me– How do I get people to open up to me? Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:so you said that you're not a fly on the wall when you go to a shoot in someone's house. So you're going into their environment and yet for some reason that environment can still happen. I mean, of course you're manipulating it. You have to. Just putting a camera anywhere changes things. Of course. So tell us, what are you doing? And is it something that people might be able to do themselves?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, yeah, it's easy. It's simple and it's kind of cliche, but it is, well, it's a couple of things. The main thing is curiosity. So, you know, talking to people, asking the kind of questions that make them realize kind of early on, oh, hang on. This is not just about taking family photos. She's not just here for this. This is about she's here to help us make sense of our lives and the way we fit together. And the way I help people realize that is with curiosity and empathy and the way you ask questions and follow-up questions. So if I ask something, oh, how long has your kid been doing that? you know, weird, quirky habit or whatever. And then they'll tell me and I'll say, what do you think's going on for him when he's doing it? So just follow up. When you ask questions, don't just be satisfied with an answer. Try sentences that start with, what's it like for you when that happens? Or what do you think's going on for him when he's doing that? And just questions that are really heavily laden with curiosity and empathy like that is how you make people feel like they matter and it's how you help them realize that it's not just about photos. It's about meaning making and making sense of their lives. So that's the answer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because you're putting together a long form series of photographs. You're putting a book together for these people. It's not just about photos because it's the relationship between the next photo to the photo before it. And when you open a page and you look at the spread, I mean, that's the thing people don't understand, the difference between, you know, photography and taking photos and actually making a broader story, whether it be an exhibition or a book or, you know, some sort of a meaning of a combination of prints and what that sort of puts, what that hangs together. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it really makes our jobs in this industry much more interesting to know that we're not trying to get a nice series of photographs, that we're trying to do a lot more.
SPEAKER_00:It makes our job more interesting, so that's good. But then on the other side, it makes people lean into the experience of being seen and kind of surrender to it. And, you know, a lot of that stuff comes from my background and there's definitely, you know, a therapeutic tone to some of my questioning. But anyone can do it. Anyone can do it. You just have to be respectful about how far you go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you've probably got to have a bit of sensitivity to it.
SPEAKER_00:Very much. Where you might be going with things. Very much,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. Because most people like to talk about themselves, don't they?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, especially if they can sense that your motives are good and that if they can sense that, oh, she needs to know this to decide how to photograph us or to decide what threads of this story matter more. And then they sense my investment and, yeah, well, you're right. It is hopefully disarming.
SPEAKER_01:So how do you think, like this just like slightly different tact here, how do you think the big rock star photographers who clearly have no interest in anything, you know, I mean I'm saying this like a really abusive way, but that seem to have no interest in anyone but themselves, how do they get, like there are, killer photographers doing killer work through the history of, you know, these last sort of 30, 40 years in photography and they get this incredible work. Do you think it's just them that's in front of the camera? Because I know, I've been there, I've seen them work. They don't have an interest in the subject. They hardly even meet the subject, some of them.
SPEAKER_00:Are they good at creating the illusion of the interest?
SPEAKER_01:Maybe they're there telling the story that everyone thinks is true.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, maybe they're imposing their story.
SPEAKER_01:Well, they're probably photographing people, public people who are already putting their own story out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, people who are not open to having their narrative interpreted. So there's no point in trying. Yeah, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We've seen a lot of interesting things by the sound of it, though.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, well, that's something to follow up. Maybe I'll ask one of those photographers. I've got to find a nice way of doing it, hopefully. Well, they probably won't listen to the
SPEAKER_00:back end. I hope they didn't listen to this little tail end of this podcast.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, they're too busy for that kind of stuff, aren't they?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So, Rowena, what's next for you? What are you going to do? And I did hear, and I didn't realise this, but next week I know you're flying to the US to do a series of portraits, yard trips and full-day shoots. That's exciting.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I love doing that. I like to try and get away once a year just to do some work somewhere else and... make it line up with seeing people I care about. So I'm lucky I can do that. But after that, I'm just focused on finishing my studies and then a little further down the track, finding a way to perhaps combine my two loves, photography and psychology. It feels a little bit ambitious at the moment, but I think... I've had a few little ideas for some ways they can fuse and elevate each other, but that's very exciting to me. I'm not quite sure where that's going
SPEAKER_01:to go. Have you thought about doing that academically? You know, because this would be, there's a PhD in that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's a guy, there's one guy, I think he's in Ireland who, is kind of forging this path because there's a lot of art therapy courses you can do but there are but none of them are like specialized on photography um they're often other mediums um but I did buy this book uh therapeutic photography from the skies but I haven't read it yet but um I think there's space for photography as visual proof of something um So like just a really super quick example, if you're thinking about somebody who's struggling with addiction, often a lot of focus is put on the addictive behavior. But I can see how photography could be powerful by shifting the focus to exceptions to the problem or acts of resistance to the addiction. Yeah. You know, if you think about someone who's trying to stop drinking, a therapeutic photography task might be to photograph moments in the week where they behaved resistance to the craving. So they might take photos of times they didn't drink in the face of a craving and then bring that back, perhaps in a group setting or one-on-one. And... those moments of resistance or alternative behaviours to the problem could be really thickened and witnessed and elevated to try to help that person take on that new identity of someone who resists addiction rather than being so saturated in the idea of the helplessness of addiction. So that's just one small little way that I could see. um photography could be used as part of therapy but um
SPEAKER_01:yeah so reinforcement
SPEAKER_00:yeah reinforcement of a part of your identity you want to enliven um so yeah that I think that I don't know if I'll be doing that kind of work but um I'm keeping an eye on um the whole industry and seeing what's out there. It's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01:I think there's so much opportunity
SPEAKER_00:in
SPEAKER_01:what's going on. I first heard of someone doing Day in the Life back in 2012, and I wish I could remember the photographer. I met her at the Hair of the Dog in Queensland. which
SPEAKER_00:was a small conference that was run. I'd like to know who that is too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and she was a Canberra photographer. Right. And she would actually stay overnight in the lounge room and be there when the kids put the cartoons on at 7 in the morning, 6 in the morning, 5 in the morning, whatever, and start shooting from then. If
SPEAKER_00:I wasn't, yeah. Because she was there the night
SPEAKER_01:before.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just so not a morning person.
SPEAKER_01:That's insane. Can you imagine?
SPEAKER_00:I couldn't get my brain going. Well, I said I used to do 7 till 7.
SPEAKER_01:But
SPEAKER_00:sleeping over, that's next. Yeah, and I
SPEAKER_01:don't think financially it added up. You know, we talked about Ali Raid earlier. I think she did it for a bit. But the work was incredible because the kids were connected to her the night before because they saw her in the evening and they knew that she would be there. And then, you know, when they bounce out with a remote control in their hand, she was there with the camera.
SPEAKER_00:And she was unremarkable already, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:really interesting. I mean,
SPEAKER_01:I don't know about you, but for me as a child, I do recall that stuff. The
SPEAKER_00:morning cartoons, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's when the real sibling behavior happens.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Watching cartoons before the parents are
SPEAKER_01:awake. You would have seen so much of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, when I used to do mornings, I did. But now I can't get my brain into gear really before 12, 11 or 12, so.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I get that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It happened about 35 for me. I don't know when it just sort of slipped out my head. Yeah. I can't do certain things.
SPEAKER_00:Probably similar for me, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're 36. That's excellent.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. I'm going to take that and run with it.
SPEAKER_01:That's fabulous. Well, Rowena, look, thank you so much for this. Like this is our– Actually, we should tell the truth. It was our third, guys, because we met in the middle and then we couldn't remember all my waffling. And Frida's here. Now, what sort of a bird is Frida?
SPEAKER_00:Pineapple conure. Are you recording vision? Can you see? I
SPEAKER_01:am, but only for the sake of maybe snippets. So it would be really cool that if we have a little bit of Frida in here. She's ready. She's being your eye. Yeah. She's so gorgeous.
SPEAKER_00:Isn't she beautiful? Yeah. She really is. She likes being on film.
SPEAKER_01:Does she?
SPEAKER_00:She's the only one of my children who's willing to. That's
SPEAKER_01:because you've been photographing the children too much, I think. Yeah, I've ruined them. Yeah, I'm sure you have. We all do that as a photographer.
SPEAKER_00:Do your kids let you photograph them still? Yes, they do. You take photos of
SPEAKER_01:your dogs. They do, but it's more like, oh, my God, look at that outfit, look what you've put together, rather than the messy stuff that he used to love photographing. because they're a little bit more conscious of, and then they threaten if I want to publish it, but I always want to publish it because
SPEAKER_00:I'm a girl. I know. It's such a, yeah, the procedure of consent for posting photos of my girls is long and arduous and it sometimes changes. They'll say yes and then no and then, like, I admit it's really, it just feels too hard and I've kind of let it go a little bit, but.
SPEAKER_01:It's tough, isn't it? Yeah. Especially when you've got such a great record going through the years. I
SPEAKER_00:know.
SPEAKER_01:To then slow it down. It makes, like I do an annual book. Do
SPEAKER_00:you still do that? Are you still doing that? That's amazing. I am.
SPEAKER_01:Like I've got the, I'm lying, totally. I've got the folders aside and the images curated. But the actual step of that, of checking with them, because what happened is, I think we talked about this. I fell into this, this is my view of the family for that year. They all have a different view. And I showed them– I would show them the books. I'd say, why didn't you put this one in and why didn't you put– and it's like, well, why didn't you do this? And then I was very sensitive because I know they're not going to. And then I was like, okay, I need to check with them what they want. And then it became too big, too
SPEAKER_00:hard. Yeah. And you cared about getting it right for them, which is really– you're a nice dad.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, thank you. Thank you. I try very hard.
SPEAKER_00:Frida looks very, very happy. Isn't she beautiful?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, she's really showing off her princessiness.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, if you do take any video from this, can you, like, make it the part where Frida's covering my face? Why? No, I won't ask
SPEAKER_01:you why. There's a whole other
SPEAKER_00:conversation. My face isn't on the internet enough from the silly colour portraits.
SPEAKER_01:Well, my mum has your jigsaw
SPEAKER_00:puzzle. You don't need any more of me on the internet. Your mum does. Well, you know, I don't know
SPEAKER_01:if she's mounted it yet and put it in a frame, but she's done it with some jigsaw puzzles in the past, so I'm waiting
SPEAKER_00:for that next step. Oh, now I feel like it's– now I'm going to feel like failed if she doesn't frame mine. You have to keep me updated. What do I have to do to get her over
SPEAKER_01:the line? I don't know. The one she's got definitely framed is an Emma Hack artwork, which is
SPEAKER_00:Emma's a
SPEAKER_01:body painter who did the video clip for Wally Gaultier's Somebody I Used to Know. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:what? Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Love that song. Yeah, so Emma did that body painting. Never really did any other super great songs afterwards.
SPEAKER_01:No, but we'd all love Emma's– printing of her artworks and that sort of stuff and she sells them as...
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I'd love to see
SPEAKER_01:that. Yeah, they're gorgeous stuff. Okay. But look, this is enough about me and enough of us for our poor listener who has
SPEAKER_00:been here. Hopefully we've got something. Yeah, hopefully there was something. I
SPEAKER_01:think there's
SPEAKER_00:plenty. One thing.
SPEAKER_01:I think there's one. I think you're a fabulous subject and you had some great... Like, great stuff that people– I think every photographer should have your level of sensitivity or the industry in a much better place if people took themselves out of the equation as a photographer, which you see it a lot in stuff, a lot of over-directing and over-management of things. And then you can pick a photographer's work because, you know, it's just them there with their personality. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's funny because I get both. So I get to put myself into the photo a lot with the yard traits, like with that so heavily directed. So then I don't– so when I do day in the life, it's really– it is much easier to try to keep myself out of it. But it's impossible to keep yourself out of it, as you
SPEAKER_01:know. It is, but in the yard trait, you've got how long, an hour?
SPEAKER_00:No, like no, I just bang them out in like 20 minutes. And it's one photo. Yeah, just one photo.
SPEAKER_01:You've got no time to understand them and get that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but it's a challenge to try to get as much out of them super quick.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Let's stop dribbling on now. Like we tried to wrap it up and then we started again. The people are just like, oh, God, I thought it was over and now it's still going.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's fine. I'm happy with that. We'll all say goodbye then and I wish you good luck in Boston next week.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:And thank you so much for being a guest. It's been a real joy catching up again. Yes. And I hope to see you in the
SPEAKER_00:not-too-distant future. I hope to see you in Adelaide. Yeah, I am coming back later this year.
SPEAKER_01:We're ready for you.
SPEAKER_00:We'll go and get a hot dog.
SPEAKER_01:Without
SPEAKER_00:cabbage. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, Rowena.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Thanks, Paul. See you. See you. See
SPEAKER_01:you. See
SPEAKER_00:you.