Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 43 - David Hume interview
David Hume is the inaugural winner of the SALA SOLO Photographic Opportunity.
This art ‘prize’ was devised by Paul Atkins, Gavin Blake and Patty Chehade as a collaborative opportunity to develop and show a new body of work with the guidance of all three prize givers. The prize directly includes mentoring from Gavin Blake of the Centre for Creative Photography (CCP) the printing and framing of the artwork buy Atkins Lab, and the staging of the exhibition at Praxis Art Space.
David lept on the opportunity, and we are only days away from the exhibition opening as part of the 2023 South Australian Living Artists Festival (SALA).
This interview with David tells the story of him tackling the opportunity, it’s loaded with helpful guidance for any artist chasing success in their field.
Details on this opportunity can be found on the SALA website at this link: https://www.salafestival.com/opportunities/
G'day listeners, welcome to the Atkins Labcast. On this episode I interview David Hume. He's the inaugural winner of the SALA Solo Photographic Opportunity. Now that's a lot of what sounds like acronym in there, but let's start with SALA, the South Australian Living Artist Festival. And Solo Photo Opportunity is a prize that has been conjured up by ourselves here at Atkins, Gavin Blake, at the Centre for Creative Photography, and Paddy Shahadi of Praxis Artspace. So effectively, we want to give a local artist an opportunity to have mentoring, produce an idea, go into production with us and make the work, and then finally hang it in a really top place. gallery space which is Praxis so really it's an entire package it's a pretty cool prize so this was envisaged quite a few years ago but this is the first time it's sort of come about and David was the winner I think it was about out of 18 or so that applied and he talks about the process he talks about the value of working collaboration and you know David's an established artist this work is new work it's a new body of work and So what can an established artist get out of mentorship and collaboration in this way? And I think that's what the great part of this little interview is. So I'd like you to enjoy it. Have fun.
SPEAKER_02:Welcome to the Adkins podcast. Yeah, podcast, that'll do. Labcast? Labcaster. Welcome to the Adkins
SPEAKER_01:Labcast. Adcast Labkins. Yes, this is an unusual episode because we're actually sitting face to face. It's one of my favourite things to do, but it's awkward because we've been Skyping everybody all this time and this is, I think, my first guest since... pandemic that I've actually had sitting face to face.
SPEAKER_02:Because we did the last one, the shimmer one in 2022. That was a year.
SPEAKER_01:Was that 2022? Oh sorry, 2020. Three years ago. So the guest is David Hume. David's been on the podcast before. There's a good reason why he's back, not just because I'm running out of people to speak to. But David's the inaugural winner of of the Sala Solo Art Prize. Now, the Sala Solo Prize is an interesting little thing, and I'm just going to talk instead of asking the guest questions as to what it's about. Let's quickly explain it to our viewers slash listeners. When I say we, Gavin Blake from the Centre for Creative Photography, Paddy Shahadi from Praxis Gallery. Artspace. Praxis Artspace, and ourselves are... I've always wanted to do a more interesting prize, not just hand money over. So I'm sorry, David, you just didn't get the money. No, this is better. Well, we'll find out. This is what this conversation is about. No, no, no. But the prize idea was to do something where we would help someone stage an exhibition and make a bigger thing of the prize. And we wanted to encourage new artists and new work. And experimental work we wanted to make. Give people like a golden parachute of sorts. Not a retirement thing, but you know what I mean. A helping hand, a step up, all that kind of thing to make an interesting show. So we had everyone apply based on the fact they entered Sala last year, had a show, either part of a show or had their own show. And that application they submitted and then our– judging team, looked at the shows, and then picked the winner out of those that applied. And David is our inaugural winner. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. So it was great to– well, it'll come out by the end of the podcast why I understand why David's been a good decision. Sorry to point at your finger, David, and maybe slightly embarrass you. But you have actually taken this completely the way we intended for it to go. Because you can imagine if we chose an artist who– wasn't going to take up the opportunity at every opportunity, at every turn and make something of it, it would be a bit frustrating. And it wouldn't work like we had intended. Well,
SPEAKER_02:Sala are very… about calling it an opportunity when you were having those conversations. We wanted to call it a prize. Yeah, and I can see, and their point I think is valid, that they say, oh, a prize you get afterwards and it's just a pat on the back, yeah, you get a prize, you've done a terrific job sort of thing. Whereas the opportunity is the thing that happens and it is, that's what it has been. It has been an opportunity to, well, it's been an opportunity, I mean, a prize would, reward something that I'd done and this opportunity has enabled me to do stuff that I would not otherwise have been able to do. So I think that's, you know, I think it's a good name for it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, so Sarlast, for those who don't understand, is a South Australian Living Artist Festival. Yeah. So the idea is we're celebrating art that's being made now by people who are active in the community trying to do interesting things. So I think this idea of an opportunity really does fit into this because, you know, It actually turns out to be a ton of work for everybody. I mean, the artist was always going to do the work if they're going to have a show. But as sponsors, I think it possibly would have been easier just to hand money over. Oh,
SPEAKER_02:for sure. And, you know, that's why it's so good. Yeah, I sort of come back to this, but I could not have done– I mean, you know, it hasn't happened yet, it opens in two weeks, but I could not have done what I've been able to do without, it's not, you know, part of it is financial help, you know, a very significant part, but being able to talk to people and just have these conversations that you don't, normally get you know what should we do talking to gavin talking to you all the technical stuff that we've talked about seeing how patty the opportunity to show um in patty's space and how that all works and how she puts things together it's just like all of it it's terrific and the sort of feeling that you you know you don't normally get suppose i i had a relationship with a gallery and I go, okay, I'm going to do a Sala show, it would be, all right, Dave, show us your work, come and see us a month beforehand, then we'll talk about catalogues, we'll talk about openings and all that sort of thing. Whereas this has been ever since the announcement, which I guess is a year less one month since... Right from the start, I've been talking to you guys and thinking about what we might do. And of course... like I had an idea of where the show would be going because I put that in my application, which, of course, I couldn't remember afterwards
SPEAKER_01:because I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah, so we had wanted– part of the application was that you did say what you were intending to do. We wanted to be inspired to go, well, this is looking like a duck we want to chase. Yeah. You know, something's going to come of this. And not to some idea that someone's throwing out like a crazy idea. You know, it's nice that it's got some possibility that can actually happen. Well, I think–
SPEAKER_02:It's a bit hard to know. I was thinking about this just today and yesterday because if you're putting a proposal up, I mean, in one way it can be a bit– if I said, oh, look, I'm going to do 12 photos and they're going to be like this and they're going to be– and you go, well, why do we need to help that? He already knows what he's going to do. Yeah. But then on the other hand, if I said, oh, I'm exploring the nature of life and place, you go, what does that mean? And what's he going to do? So I guess it's tricky. And that's sort of something that it would be nice to be able to help people who are thinking of gee, what should I say? How would I do that? What are the kind of things that get you guys going when you're looking at a proposal? That sort of balance of what is achievable, what's reaching for too much, what's being a little bit too ambitious, what's being too safe, all that kind of stuff. So David, have you ever entered prizes before, art prizes before? Well, I'd entered a few, but when I started doing the Masters in 2021, then I just sort of put my hand up for everything and thought any opportunity, anything that I see, I'm going to enter. and just get the experience of going through the process. But this one, the Sala photographic opportunity, I thought, you know, this would be fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:Well, how did you work out what it was? Because it was a really messy, like... It's so hard to communicate what this involves.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think I had a pretty good idea because I knew Praxis, like I knew the space and I knew where that was positioned in the Adelaide Gallery scene. And I thought, oh, yeah, that'd be great to have a show there. And also, you know, having done some subjects at CCP, I knew Gavin and having worked with you in the past and got stuff, you know, from Atkins. Yeah. I think I had a pretty good idea of what it would be like. But, I mean, of the mechanics of it, I think. But that's– and through study, I knew the value of feedback from people. It was such
SPEAKER_01:a– You see, you're not at the beginning of your career, right? Getting a mentor in the thing which you've made your career on, at your point of career, is a really– It's an unusual thing to be like, yay. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:but that's what I've learned from being a student. What,
SPEAKER_01:going back doing your maths? Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:yeah, yeah. No, I've learned it doesn't matter. If I'm in the CCP and I'm sitting in with a bunch of photography and SACE kids, so like people in their late teens, I learn stuff from that experience every week. And if I'm not… learning stuff from all those people, it's like it's my fault. It's not like, oh, I have nothing to learn here. It's like, well, I'm going to learn this, I'm going to learn that. It's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:That's a cool thing. How many exhibitions have you had through your career?
SPEAKER_02:Solo, probably
SPEAKER_01:25 or so. Right, okay. Tell me, okay, so that frames, you know, I'm just trying to be the listener here. I know you, but you've taken on a mentor who, after your 25th solo show in a subject that you're kind of familiar... This is not your only genre of photography, though. And Gavin Blake of the Centre for Creative Photography, we've said CCP, he's... provided the mentoring. So what's he done in that? And tell me how that was from an experienced exhibiting artist. No,
SPEAKER_02:Gavin's got a good general arts knowledge. I mean, he did his Masters over in the States when, you know, like in the, I won't say good old days, but when it was a real thing sort of thing. 70s, wasn't it, or 80s? 80s. I reckon he may, I think he might have come back to Adelaide in the 80s. Yeah, late 80s, you're right. But I mean, his arts knowledge, he's got a great eye and his arts knowledge is very extensive. And he's very good at looking at what someone is doing and kind of teasing out a bit more out of it. Have you thought of this? Or what you should look at is such and such. So, you know, I have a bit of a chat. Oh, look, I'm doing this. Oh, have a read of this. Have you thought of this? Have you thought of that? So there's that aspect that helps the work along. And then there's that other aspect because... To compare this experience with what I would have done since the 80s, it's Dave working away, getting 20 pieces together, trying to decide, have an idea, get all the pieces together, decide which you're going to make the cut for the show, have the show, evaluate it. That's the sort of the point at which you can evaluate what you've done. Whereas this process is, it's like you can, You condense years of growth into one because you get a bit of an idea, have a chat, have a chat to you about technical stuff or have a chat to Gavin about the artistic side of things, and then that gets knocked into shape way more quickly than it would be if you were developing it more fully. Right, right. So instead of developing it to the end where it becomes a piece, you– you kind of do a little bit of work on it, think about where it might go, that gets knocked in one direction or another or something is suggested. Other new threads are suggested or the direction changes or something like that happens. So the work grows much more quickly in that scenario than it does. And that's what happens in a good educational sort of institution as well. So this is a bit like, you know, it's like... being in uni on steroids.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very focused on one thing, yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's great. Well, so we sort of touched on lightly that there are other mediums that you've worked in. So 25 years is not just exhibiting photography, is it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I started off as a watercolourist because that's what– My introduction to the visual arts was working in the Ruth Tuck Junior Art School, my holiday job when I was at uni, studying physics, like nothing to do with art. So what
SPEAKER_01:was the decade
SPEAKER_02:of that? Oh, that was... Early 1980s, so like 1981 or something. So I worked there for about three years and then I became a physics teacher for a few years. But when I was there, it was very much a sort of, I guess, post-expressionist, watercolourist people. They were the people I was hanging around with. And I guess that's when I sort of got the confidence to do stuff because you– You trust these people and when they're like, oh, okay, Dave, you can do this, you can sort of, you know, that enabled me to keep going. And the opportunities to show when I had my first solo show probably when I was about 25 or something at a, you know, back in the days when there were commercial galleries in, that was Kensington Gallery, just around the corner from where we are now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so one thing leads to another. You go, yeah, I've got a show. And it's very sort of– it's a yes or no sort of thing because you go, well, am I or am I not going to do this? You don't go, am I kind of like ready or am I good enough? You go, well, am I or aren't I? And once it becomes a yes, then you sort of have to do the best you can and follow it through and you learn along the way about all those things. So all the stuff about– Making the work about how you schedule yourself and how you get yourself organized and how you deal with the gallery and the gallery people. And, you know, you learn about the value of showing up and that what's on the line is doing the work. You know, you can't sort of get flaky on it. You've got to deliver. Or it'll be. the last time anyone talks to you. And probably rightly so, unless something bad happens. Because I always sort of figured, you know, I think making art's really hard, but being organised is something, you know, is something anyone can do it. I don't know. Really. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's partly an excuse for not being organised. You can say, look, I've done the very best I could about making this art and this is really the best I could do and it might not be any good. But...
SPEAKER_01:Be careful, you might be sitting on some neurodiverse people's toes right now. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:well, that might be something. But going, well, look, I'm going to call you on Tuesday, that means I'm going to call you on Tuesday. I'm going to have four works done. It means there are certain things that you can say you will do and then follow through on them.
SPEAKER_01:And look, the very few people are so good that people are going to be chasing…
SPEAKER_02:You the artist.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You do have to represent yourself, don't you? I think so, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I had to because that was my path, though, was being very much– all I had was my kind of track record, if you like. I didn't have that, well, wow, this is what I did for my final thesis or anything because I didn't have that tertiary education in the visual arts experience. It was all kind of– I mean, I was really interested what drove me into– into being interested in arts was theory more, but it was kind of like my own explorations. In a way, I was an autodidact dilettante sort of thing along the way. And so that's one of the reasons why I wanted to go, when I had time, go and do further study, do the postgrad things that I did at UniSA.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think the information that you picked up on... forgive me for saying this, the School of Hard Knocks, versus what the university told you about preparing to be an exhibiting artist. Do you think the university's kind of got it down pat? It's very different.
SPEAKER_02:Like what the university, well, I won't say the university, what an academic approach has that I think is fantastic is this dialogue that you can enter into with practitioners in the field. So if you have studied... art history and art theory and you have sort of been through you know what research is you know what an academic sort of document is then you are able to have a conversation with arts practitioners all over the place and you're speaking the same language and when you say something you can express yourself and you can justify and you can explain what you're doing in a way that is understood. So it's a universal kind of language. And if you go off on a... It stops you going off on a tangent that's a bit wacko, if you know what I mean. And that might not seem like a bad thing. You go, where does the imagination, where do the advances come from? How does art progress if people are locked into this sort of framework? But I think that there's... the collegiality, the dialogue with practitioners is invaluable. That's fantastic. But what it doesn't give you is a connection between the academic world and the public world. And I think that that is something that the visual arts could maybe do better. Certainly that's what I would like it to do better because I think if you look at, say, compare it to music... you need an audience of people for your performance and they're not all musicians. I mean, musicians will be there, but you go to something up at Eukarya or we went to something when I was in Brizzy, we went to the Queensland Performing Arts Centre and it was a local Queensland hero violinist. Okay, so maybe 5% of the audience are professional musicians, whereas I think a danger in... A trap in the visual arts is that the art is made and understood for a professional audience more than a generalist audience sometimes. And I'm a big proponent that it should be– it's got to be– it's got to do both. Well, great art has to do both. Yeah, well, I mean, in a way, if the art's good enough, then the theory will follow it, like the theory will jump into it and sort of, you know, it's a bit like it'll zoom through like a sonic boom sort of thing and then the theory will collapse around it and fill up the space and that'll be what's happening. But if you look at how things happen, I mean, it's not... So Picasso doesn't come out of nowhere, you know, Picasso's looking over his shoulder at what Cezanne's doing and in... in Cezanne's method of observation he's seeing the genesis of cubism and you know there's Picasso and Matisse are sitting eyeing each other off in Gertrude Stein's living room you know where did he get that oriental art from I'm going to have a bit of a go all that kind of stuff happens so there's this eye on what people are thinking what people are doing and how that can then lead to something else that's interesting but it's I really think it must captivate the public. It must. Otherwise, you just get this sort of self– a little self-sustaining bubble which can't really grow. And without it looking out to the public, it has to shrink. It's
SPEAKER_01:like an exercise, isn't it? It's like an exercise in the process. But, you know, there's a lot of art you go and see isn't– like that and it doesn't pull everybody in it pulls very few in and it's there and then people can learn from it if they've got an open enough mind but it's not it doesn't elevate everything but it's still there it's like it's like the The cake, in my opinion, anyway.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I guess it depends.
SPEAKER_01:As opposed to the cake with the icing when everything's right,
SPEAKER_02:sorry. Well, I guess if you look at, like I think our State Gallery does a really great job. You go in and you see stuff there and it's important and it's well curated and it's great stuff. And you can go in and have a look and people can go in and it's wonderful for people. for that sort of public engagement. And I guess you could say, well, look, if you take an artist-run space like Floating Goose or Felt Space or something like that, then you go, well, is that really their job to engage the public or is their job more to support artistic practice of the members, the people who are sustaining it who are practitioners? And, you know, I don't know. I guess places get to decide what they want to do. But from my... own point of view, my own sort of perspective and my own practice, I really want to be able– I want my stuff to kind of speak to both camps, if you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I think– yeah. I mean, really, what artist wouldn't want to– I guess no
SPEAKER_02:one doesn't want to communicate
SPEAKER_01:to people. No, no, but you didn't sort of verge on the making decor, if you're not careful.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, if you were doing– yeah, I mean, there is that thing about– doing something that's merely popular, which is kind of, oh, my God, that's poison. But it's not so much– it doesn't have to be like that. I reckon historically there's a real difference between the way the US and Europe have seen that, or in particular England have seen that sort of thing. Explain. Well, in the United States being– popular is a vote of being good because there is a sort of presupposition that the people are right. And if the people like it, then it's good. Whereas in the UK, you could say there's a supposition that there are 5% of the people who really matter. And if those people like it, it's good. And if the 95% like it, well, they don't really know what they're looking at. So you should be offended. Yeah, you should be offended if they like it. And I reckon, I mean, that's a real difference. If you look at the difference between 1984 and Fahrenheit 451, in Fahrenheit 451 the collapse is blamed on the people. It's sort of like you did this to yourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas in 1984 it's, oh, the government did this to you. It's like the population doesn't have responsibility because they are not sort of in a way worthy of controlling their own destinies. Whereas with the way Bradbury as an American writes about this dystopic future, the people are those who have put themselves in that thing. Yeah, and of course applying to art. That's beautiful. Yeah. And I think– so if you look at– and let's say someone who's– let's say Warhol, for example. What he did, looking at it now, is just so clever and– so much an advance in what was going on. Oh, you
SPEAKER_01:can see the leaps
SPEAKER_02:now.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. You can see it now. Back then it was like– I mean, from a non-art kid, it was terrifying. I thought it was a terrible waste of time. What is this indulgent rat doing? Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:yeah. Okay, so he's sustaining himself through this, if you like, faith in capitalism because it's all private money and fame and let's get famous, let's get support for this and support for that. If you look at it now in a way that's slightly difficult because the exhibitions that he did are no longer there. There's pieces.
SPEAKER_01:And they really were, the show was the show. The show was the show.
SPEAKER_02:His diaries have recently been on Netflix and they're really worth watching because it shows a lot of the exhibitions that he put together while he was really hitting it, hitting his straps. And the way he could fill a space was, you know, you look at it and you go, my God, that is a show. You know, today you go, there's a soup can there. There's Liza Minnelli in a silk screen. You look at it back when it was a show and it's like, my God. Because, okay, there's the down and out-y, New York-y bits. You can get a huge warehouse and blah, blah, blah. But he could bloody fill that thing and really make it
SPEAKER_01:work. Yeah, we're liking that context. Yeah, the
SPEAKER_02:context is really important
SPEAKER_01:for that. Do you think that the context– are you feeling the pressure for– Like, you've just been through it. You've got a space to fill.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Do you feel that pressure? Oh, look, it's a really interesting– I mean, it is a huge part of the show because I think in a way that we have this problem– something. Let's say it's a problem. Why bother to exhibit today, you know, in a world where everyone consumes art on screens, on their phones and through their– computers and laptops and blah, blah, blah. Why bother to have a physical show? And it means that we need a different kind of art and a different sort of experience. So when all my little pictures are packed up in their bubble wrap today and I take them in the van round to Paddy's gallery, I'm now thinking, okay... Fellas, we're going to unwrap you and put you on the wall and you have to become something. You have to become something that is more than someone looking at their screen. So that's what I've got to do. And otherwise, why bother? Go home if it's not going to be something that you can't get through any
SPEAKER_01:other experience. But you'd mapped the gallery out in miniature. You'd made yourself a model of the space and the pieces yourself. You were thinking, from the word dot, I mean, we kind of pressured you in that respect. We said, you know, this is an important space. We want to do right by Patty. Otherwise she's not going to play again.
SPEAKER_02:Well, but it's different these days because let's say that you were Robert Frank doing the Americans or something like, you know, photography in the early 70s, I think it was. Maybe later. No, maybe it was earlier. I don't know. I think it was earlier. But you can get the message of what he did, you could get through his book. Yeah, that little book. And if you're looking at, say, going back further, what Cartier-Bresson did or something like that, you can get that through an 8x10 print. So if Cartier-Bresson was able to make a leap today, he wouldn't need a gallery space to do it. He could do it through his Insta account, if you know what I mean. Do you think he could? Well, no. No, he couldn't do it because it would be too diluted by everything else. But you don't need... You can get the brilliance of Cartier-Bresson in a nice hardback book. You don't have to go and see it. You can go, oh, my God, the moment. I remember I'd probably never seen a genuine Cartier-Bresson print, but you can flick through. I just remember thinking when I discovered him, I'm thinking, why are people still bothering to take photos? This guy's just nailed it. He's done them all. He's just done it. This Mexico stuff. You go, oh, my
SPEAKER_01:God. And it doesn't have to be– the print isn't the ultimate expression of the work. It survives on a newspaper. Correct. Whereas Ansel Adams seeing a print is more of the story because Ansel's prints were pretty stunning. It's an addition to the story. Maybe Gregory Crudson would be more of an example where you need to be in front of the damn thing to really understand what he's done.
SPEAKER_02:And I guess that's part of– when photography went from its inception to be a shorthand, realistic recording medium, and if someone said, well, if it's going to be an art form, It's got to do what art does. In other words, it's got to fill gallery walls and it's got to be about the object. Like you can't go, oh, did you see that Matisse? Oh, yeah, I looked at my book. No, no, no, you've got to go and look at it in the wall. So it has to be about the print. So you've got to have a great big print and you've got to do this. Well, you don't have to have a great big Cartier Bresson or a great big Robert Frank or something like that. You can get what they're on about or, you know, like an Ernst Haas or something. You can get what they're on about from a reproduction, not– not to the same degree as you would get from an original but you still get something out of it like you still get a pretty decent sort of clue as to what they're on about so Today, I think it's kind of changed and I'm very conscious of going, well, look, you have to get something that you're only going to get when you walk into Patty's space. And, you know, like the lenticulars, there's no other way of seeing it. I've got to make stuff and there's no other way of experiencing it. The video piece that I'm making, you have to go into the room. Yeah. Can't have it on YouTube. What's the point of that? I don't need Patty's
SPEAKER_01:room. Something else will be going on around the YouTube screen you'll be getting talked to when you're trying to watch it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think Warhol at the time had to take over the space or would his work have had a lot less impact if he hadn't consumed the space?
SPEAKER_02:I don't think he was aware so much of the space. I think he was thinking... about the works that he was making and certainly scale was a part of that but it was there was the industrial nature of it like the you know being a factory the reproducibility of it the use of um you know commercial reprographic methods like the big silk screens and and staff Oh, yeah, yeah, getting people to– but okay, staff. I mean, Canaletto would have had a working studio, so it's– and the master comes in and puts the eyes in, gets the expression right on the faces. So that's probably something– I mean, I guess, you know, plus a change, all that sort of thing, but there was that idea– Canaletto thinks, oh, yeah, I'm here to flog pictures, mate, and only rich people are going to buy them. bring me some rich people so I can flog some pictures. It doesn't really get much more complex than that. But when he's cleverer than all the other people who are trying to do things and he's doing things that they're not and he's doing cleverer stuff with multiple viewpoints and perspectives that
SPEAKER_01:somehow... Plus 100 years after they died and we're looking back at that movement, but at the time it was business and mercenary. Postmodern now it's all about... making something of something that was just a commercial product.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but there is that thing. I mean, in Venice in particular, I think you can't really show off with money because there's so much of it around. I mean, you need a certain amount. You need enough for a palazzo, but if there are 20 people with palazzi... then what you can do is have the best paintings. And that doesn't mean the biggest. It means ones that are so sort of subtle. The differentiation between what's good and what's not becomes more subtle. So the taste becomes more exquisite, if you know what I mean, because it's harder. You can't just say, oh, look, I'm going to get a bigger Canaletto because people go, oh, gosh. And you have to go, well, I'll get something that's a bit finer. So there is that... it drives it in a way that it's sort of slightly different. But it's still kind of showing
SPEAKER_01:off. Sure. It's really interesting, especially around the current discussion of the hatred of billionaires at the moment and all that. It's really interesting to see what they're doing to have their lives be unique and their disregard for society and all that kind of stuff and playing it back on what would have been in the past. I mean, I suppose the attitudes and the people at the heart were the same– self-indulgent types, they just had better taste because they were buying beautiful paintings. Because they needed it, yeah. Commissioning beautiful paintings and the whole– anyway, look, we don't need to talk about that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was a smaller audience, I guess, because these days the audience is much wider. Global, yeah. Because you show off through electronic or through social media and stuff. That's right, that's right. So you're showing off to– you're not just showing off to the other people who've got palazzi.
SPEAKER_01:That's right, that's right. Anyway. So let's get to the work. Yeah. What are you pitching to us, the viewer, with this show? What is this show about? I see beautiful landscapes, coastal landscapes, fluoro landscapes. What are you saying with this work?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I'm trying to make beautiful stuff. I'm making stuff that sustains me when I'm looking at it once I've made it, I guess. I mean, because I love being out there. when that is happening. Like I find that experience really intense. It's some of those– the pictures that are in the lenticulars, for example, that sort of 20 minutes when I was on the beach on the rocks actually and the clouds are coming across and the things are changing. I was just kind of like, whoa. I was like, whoa. So this is all for you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can only handle about 20 minutes or so of that. I was thinking, oh, tone this down a bit. It's getting a bit much because it was just so– Gorgeous out there. So some of it is, well, let's see if I can capture that and make something out of it that records what I saw. But then it becomes really interesting. Like, can I convey some of that to someone else? Can I communicate that to you, for example? Can I communicate to someone who, like, if I'm out there on the rock kind of like just about to faint sort of thing, and someone standing next to me, they're not going to be, oh yeah, nice cloud. But that kind of, I don't know what it is, susceptibility or something like that to it. Part of it is that. Part of it is just sort of being... really affected by that and then thinking, well, this is pretty interesting. I wonder what I can do with it. Can I do anything useful with that? Otherwise I'd just be walking around. Isn't that enough? Yeah, isn't that enough? Although it's not
SPEAKER_01:enough because you're an artist making art. I didn't mean to say that's a cheap shot. No, no, no, it's not. You sat there and you soaked up more of those than you photographed.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for sure. And part of it is like I think it's a– partly an attempt to understand that, to sort of try and interrogate what it is. And then by recording it, by sharing it, by sort of making work out of it, it's a way of me trying to understand it, I guess. So I'm sort of going, oh, well, when I look at that, there's one thing that I'm seeing and then I know part of the photographic process is, okay, I'm sticking some... lens and some film or maybe a sensor but in this case it's film and then I'm going to look at the negs and then I'm going to decide what to do with them I'm manipulating those to make them into something and that's my decision and my choice and my sort of experience and i guess a skill part of it comes in there because i'm changing the colors adjusting the tones and if you're you know doing a print that's what you'd be doing if you were say doing something for national geographic you'd just be going oh here's my code crime mate you know it's all done and you it's all done in the camera i've got a combination now because i start off with what happens in the camera and then i'm doing stuff to the negs afterwards and then making the print. And, you know, there's many
SPEAKER_01:more steps. And so you're also overpainting and doing– like lenticulars as an effect of print. Like that's three or four images being shown to you as you move across the print because of a lens in front of it. Yeah. So you're doing things beyond just making a print of these and manipulating before print. You're overpainting. You're using– what's happening there? Well, I guess part
SPEAKER_02:of that is like interrogating the nature of– photography like what
SPEAKER_01:is photography so you're kind of thrashing about
SPEAKER_02:well yeah I always I guess I have a kind of tendency to like bang into a reducto ad absurdum kind of argument about well what is the very how far can I push this when does it become something else you know if there's a photograph and you can adjust the tone curves or you can adjust the contrast when you're printing or make it brighter what would happen if you did this or what would happen when does it How much makes it better? How much makes it worse? And when does it– if you paint over the top, when is it a painting? When is it a photograph? So I find those questions about the nature of different media really interesting. It's a bit like, well, why would I make a photograph of this instead of a pencil sketch or instead of an oil painting or instead of a screen print? Why do you do one thing and not– another what does one medium give you that another one does not and you don't sort of see that if you're just looking at a straight photograph you go oh yeah it's a photo but if i then like some of those ones where i've like taken the scraper and got and put a great big red line across it well then it's a well you know what's that all about and if it didn't have that it would only be a nice black and white photo of clouds. And you sort of, well, so what? And I'd think, yeah, it's nice enough, but that's not really enough for me. It needs to have something a bit more interesting, a bit more kind of jolting in it, but it's an artwork. It has to be an artwork. So I can't beat you over the head with a manifesto and go, aha, what is the nature of photography? No, here's a question. It's got to be... Wow, you've got to look at that and think, oh, do I like that? And you don't have to, but if I'm doing my job right, then I'm making something where you're sort of going, oh, I do like that. But why? What's going on? What's happening? So that is, and I guess a lot of it is about that. And again, and that comes back again, I guess, to the nature of the object itself. Because, like, if I'm asking you to get in your car and go over to Paddy's and walk into this room, I've got to, you know, you've got to justify it. And so, you know, so if I put, like, pure cadmium red pigment onto this, then that's a colour that you can't get anywhere else. You
SPEAKER_01:can't get that on a screen. You know, I can't get that colour out of my head. I can't see your work. It's...
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's nice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it really has. It's stuck with me, those three or four pieces. There's three, yeah. Three. So, you know, when I saw these, so for those who can't see the work, it's seascape, you know, subtly, beautifully shot on film. It's got this lovely feel to it. And then there's this on fire red suave through the middle of it that, you know, for me it's your– love that I'm seeing in that of that place and I see that's what I see is burning through the work and it's almost like you this is just me and you haven't told me this this is me your I can feel you yelling love this this is incredible you should have been here this is this is what I feel when I'm here this you know I'm overwhelmed by this now like awe is one of the oldest things it's what drives religion it's the oldest trick in the book now It's Mother Nature playing that trick on us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you are particularly susceptible, as I am. I'm trying to think of the art movement. So who was the painter who did The Wanderer? We're going to seem like dopes right now and we're going to be like, oh, my God. Scrabbling our brains. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. But it's that thing where the artist wants to drag the people out of the city and and give them awe. They want to drag them back into nature and say, this is what you should be living for. Not literally go out and live in nature, but you should be feeling this grandeur. And great art from this particular genre is inspirational and moving. Now, the shot of the Wanderer is of the young man standing in front of a valley and screaming. Scotland, I believe. And he's overseeing this and it's from behind and he's got his walking stick in his outfit. You know, the age, the era of it. And he's standing there looking at... And you could say it's colonial because he's looking over this native land like he owns a damn place. But I take it as being it's someone out there soaking it up and feeling the presence of what their God is, whether it be a religious experience or not. They're feeling awe.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Look, and that's really... Certainly that's part of it because I've long been fascinated by beauty and aesthetics, which you can get too theoretical about. And I kind of, I'm pretty old-fashioned. It's sort of, it got, I still, we've said this before, I still believe Plato in this sort of search for the sublime that's there, but you can never, it's unattainable. You can't quite see it. And so I do think there is this, beauty that's that's and that's something i'm trying to capture but then you could kind of go into neuroscience and and go well okay is this just a response you know are our brains wired to find a horizon gorgeous for some reason you know for some biological evolutionary reason to put it very bluntly um is the the beauty of the fractal nature of tree branches useful because it helps us identify birds that we can then eat you know that kind of thing so that's really interesting and I don't I'm not kind of proposing an answer but I'm not going to go and bloody do a neurological study on anyone but I do think that that's one of those things that motivates me and I love seascapes because it's as simple as you can get. You know, like I sort of say in my statement, there's nothing– there's water and air and light. That's all you've got. And, okay, what colour is water? Transparent, no colour. What colour is air? Doesn't have a colour. And so– but with those three things mixed together, you get this– it's just so beautiful. And I'm really kind of like, okay, how can I– I'm trying to make something that's beautiful– just out of these elements. And talking about land and landscapes, and that's something that everyone has got to deal with, but here in Australia it is, to my mind, one of the great questions. How do we deal with the land? What do we think of the land when we look at it? Can you look at the land purely as beautiful? Can you divorce any sort of cultural reference from it and change and just see it as beautiful, I don't know. But what you can do is look at the sea, I think, and maybe it's a bit of a cop-out because I go, well, the sea was here before the land was here. So if I'm sort of coming home and I remember coming back home after being in Europe when I was in my 20s and you sort of come home and you look, oh, my God, I never noticed. This is just like, what are these houses doing here? Who put them there?
SPEAKER_01:Especially going down the
SPEAKER_02:south coast. There was rolling hills and there was sheep and cows. And then before, but even, you know, my God, there's no trees on that hill. Why not? Who took that? All that sort of stuff. But then if you look at the sea, well, this is just, you know, this is older than, this sea was like this when we would, when Australia was buzzing around the South Pole. And it really hasn't changed. Light is the same and water is the same and air is the same as
SPEAKER_01:it was. In fact, you're getting millions of years old. Yeah, the light
SPEAKER_02:we're looking at is in and all that kind of thing. And it is nice. Everything is personal and close. Everything is also– I love the idea of it's universal and when you sort of– think of of how it'd be nice to be able to think about how small the earth is and how small the solar system is in at the same time that you think how how unique this one moment is. And yet, you know, how many days have there been? How many times? All that kind of stuff. And how old do we feel? All that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's kind of, well, you don't have to read to the end of the chapter. I'm not suggesting that everyone who goes, oh, look at those. Oh, I wonder how many days old the universe is when they go and look at a seascape. But it is nice. Those are the sort of things that one– I guess, as you kind of go along and go through this process. Well, it's all part of the
SPEAKER_01:great sport of art. There's nothing stopping you wanting to say these stories. There's nothing– people think whatever they think when they see it. But the intention of what you're trying to say with it is what– I'm finding very interesting and I've always found interesting with whatever artists that's in front of us. You know, Steph Fuller's view of interplanetary existence done at the, not microscopic level, but the miniature of spiders and a snail. And, you know, she sees the universe and everything and she manages to catch, like, I get all that. Everyone's having their go at seeing it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I guess that's what, What I would say you have to do in art, that has to be the best way of saying it. So, for example, I'm not writing a novel. There's this novel, Last and First Men, written in the 30s by Olive Stapleton, in which he looks at human history and he would say that humans are a tiny little spot and then he sort of goes hundreds of thousands of years into the future when humans don't even look like anything. They're not even cockroach-like. They're way more different. um and but that's a novel like and i'm not doing that i'm going hey come into this room and here's a seascape you know might look nice in your beach house mate you know that's do what with it what you will it's um i'm motivated by all of these things that make me think that that's probably what i'd like to do during my day is play around with these you know oh yeah let's get up Let's get up while it's dark. Let's see what the– because I find that really interesting. Let's get up while it's dark and make a photo. Because what light does– if you're interested in light, the way that light plays, the way that light kind of sneaks around the horizon when you're not noticing it and can still make an image and, you know, of course– Films aren't supposed to do this. You're supposed to have enough light so that I can take you at F2.8 on the 60th. I think, well, what about if I've got to keep the shutter open for 15 seconds before it'll even register? What's that going to look like? And in what ways are the different wavelengths and different bits of colour and the ways that the chemicals aren't really supposed to be... um recording this how are they going to kind of like get bent and what's that going to give us that we can then make something a bit unexpected out of because you know okay so when why does this seascape not look like a Rothko for example why do we like a Roth you know if i've got a horizon line and a bit of light on a bit of moving sea and Rothko's got a panel and a horizon line and a panel and he i don't know if you'd say it's a horizon line But how does that play into our notion of aesthetics? So that's one thing, but then in this show I'm saying, why are you looking at a photograph here? There's some yellow on it. Did I put that on with a brush? Is that part of the printing process? So if I hadn't made it ambiguous, I think it wouldn't be sort of inviting me that kind of conversation. It wouldn't be inviting you to think what's going on. But really, it's only going to work if what you're seeing is nice enough, interesting enough for you to want to ask those questions. I can't say you have to read this explanation, otherwise you're not allowed to look at the picture. I get that. It's an invitation, I guess is one way you could say. Here's an invitation to think about... what's going on and what I'm trying to do here. And if you accept– if it's an enticing enough invitation, then you'll come in and have a go, have a play. But if not, well, bad luck. I have to go off and do another one.
SPEAKER_01:Well, then you've got something else to do, David. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'll go home and do the next one,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. Plato's idea on beauty is never resolved and you're–
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yes. It is interesting the way that one sort of thing leads to another. And this idea of what you can– I'm sort of now thinking about what can I take away, as in remove from these images and still have something that's interesting. So this– you know, you could say, well, seascapes, they're all the bloody same. All I've got is some clouds and some light and some water. But then I go, well, okay, maybe that's a bit too much. Maybe I can just sort of– just remove anything that has a shape, what would I have then? You see the fellow did the three
SPEAKER_01:pixels to depict things? Like, you know, red. No. Light blue, dark blue and yellow. And you go, oh, it's a beach. When you see it straight away, you go, I know what that is. It's a seascape. Right. And he then went about saying, okay, what else can I do with this? What other stories can I tell with three colours or, you know, this whole reductive thing. I think that's really interesting. It is interesting. I don't think– look, it's an exercise. Yeah, yeah. It's very few of it– very little of it actually works. And, you know, the beach one is one of the few that, you know, everybody can pick straight away. Right. But anyway, look, this has been a fabulous conversation. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:we haven't really talked– I have no idea. The opportunity thing. Have we talked for ages?
SPEAKER_01:We've talked for ages. I don't know how long we've talked for. Let me just have a quick look here. Yeah. We have been talking for getting close to an hour.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, isn't that great? It was great fun. Well, that's what the intention was. What I wanted to do, we've talked about the option. We've been through the idea of a collaboration. Yeah. The intention of this was to get everyone working together to produce an interesting show. Now, the show is about to hang. Yeah. We know it's good. All the three of us like it. And we're already up for an award. The advertisers shortlisted the work, which is very exciting, which means that's another level of, okay, here we go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's lovely. It's funny because in one way, like I'm thinking, yeah, is this better than other stuff I've done? Or, I mean, I'm really happy with it. And I... was very satisfied with that piece as something that we could hang the show on. And it's lovely to get that sort of little tick.
SPEAKER_01:It helps people go to the show. That's the objective of those sorts of things. Yeah, yeah. And we won't know. And you look at the reviews and you'll think one whatever of it. It doesn't really matter. Do you feel, though, that it's on for what you want to do? Or are you at that stage where a lot of artists are where they're just– Glad it's over.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, no. It's dangerous. That's a dangerous sort of time where you think that you've done all the work. And I'm guilty of this as well. You think you've done all the work and really all that can happen now is I can screw it up. I can drop something or the frames will fall over and get dinged or someone will spill a coffee on something. But really it's really important, I think, to think that– it has been a wonderful process so far that really has enabled me to make, when I say the opportunity is not just the opportunity for the show, but it's, I think, and maybe the little getting shortlisted thing is a recognition of it. I certainly feel as though I'm able to make work better now than I could, not because I've got any– I'm certainly not getting any cleverer or anything like that, but just a sort of understanding. So you're not learning? Well, I'm not learning, learning, but I'm not getting smarter, unfortunately. But that kind of learning about things and learning how to get the benefits of all the experiences around you, like I was saying earlier about learning from whatever– situation you're in or whoever you're talking to or wherever you find yourself there's always something you can pick up I learnt a lot just being on holidays in Brizzy and getting around and picking up the vibe of the city that is different from the vibe of this city thinking oh I think I was a bit sort of Adelaide centric in some of the thoughts I had maybe I can expand those maybe I can adjust my thinking to make it a bit more universal which I wouldn't have thought about if I hadn't gone and sort of, you know, caught a river cat or whatever it is, or, you know, gone and had some barramundi in a... But there's all that sort of stuff. So, and I guess that's the part of you sort of saying, well, that's what the opportunity is there for and what it offers. And certainly if you keep your eyes... open and and are receptive to to whatever's going on around you that's you can certainly pick up a lot
SPEAKER_01:yeah i think your um your idea of saying yes uh two things is a really interesting i mean i've tried to do that but there's so many times and this last few years of the pandemic has kept us all yeah all inside and under the covers and these things happen and come up and and You know, they lead somewhere. They always go somewhere. You don't know where they're going to go, but unless you say yes and see where it leads, you know, I think it's the marrow of life. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:I think, and you were sort of saying earlier about it's not uncommon for people who are working in, who are visual artists to be unsure of what they're doing. I mean, of course I'm unsure of everything I do and there's got to be risk and there's, you know, I'm looking at, When I unwrap the big pieces, am I still going to like them? Am I going to think they're okay? But the other side of that coin is that if I knew that they were okay, there would be no point in it. They wouldn't be good enough. So do you need that feeling that it might not be right? Oh, yeah, there has to be a risk in it. There has to be a risk because if there's not, you haven't really tried, I would say. Like if I haven't sort of pushed it to something– that I'm unsure of, then I haven't sort of done the most I could do with that opportunity. And part of the good thing about feedback is that I've done some things. There's work in the show that I wouldn't have put in, like, for example, the big wallpaper stuff. I love that image that I've used for that. And I thought, oh, God, no one is going to like that. And Paddy, oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_01:We all felt that. We all felt that. And it's going in a pretty lo-fi presentation method and something that doesn't– like there's only one of them in this– in this show done this way. So it's going to be interesting. It
SPEAKER_02:is. And that's a good thing, you know, about having people you trust whose views you respect and listening to them. Because there's people– like everyone's got their skills and all that kind of stuff. And if you find them and listen to them, that's– They know their stuff, you know, so just take advantage of that, which is great. And that's something that's newer to me. I, in the past, would have to do more of that myself from not having... Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:and I think this collaboration that's come about because of this has been really interesting. And I've got to say, I would struggle to think... that making art going forward, I'm not saying there's this moment in time that's right now, but I think collaboration is the thing right now. You know, working with the right people, I'm not saying that we are or Patty is, but working with another artist or something, it's more than double the power that comes from it. For sure. You know, the energy that comes out of it, whether it be just your reach or audience sort of a thing or idea sharing, that's huge. And this really, this prize is... this prize, this opportunity, I didn't realise how much of a collaboration it would be. Now, whether that's just the way that you've grabbed it versus how the next person might, because we're doing it again. We're running it for a second time. Cool. We don't know what's going to become of it. We've got entrance. Yep. We've got a lot. Yep, okay. Maybe 25 or so. Okay. Maybe 30. Cool, cool. And there's some promising looking work. So, yeah, it's a thing. I'd like to see it going, but it is a lot of work for everybody.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, you know, if you said– What is the value in terms of the multiplication factor of having a... Oh,
SPEAKER_01:here's the physics.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, it's certainly... It's more than... There's four of us, say. It's more than four times... The value or the value that… I hope so. There's one free electron buzzing around the outside. Okay, okay. And it's going to bond with… This is where we're going. But I would have to say it's sort of more like, you know, 20 or 30 times more input as to all the feedback and all the stuff that it's enabled me to do. Interesting. that I would not have– if you take away all the other stuff and say, well, look, we're not even going to have a show but we're just going to have fake conversations and that would still have been– be such a valuable thing because it's the sort of stuff that I wouldn't feel– I can't take up half a day of your time to just talk about– c-type prints and you know and leds spinning around and exposing paper and what the genesis of that was and why the tone curves of that look like they do and what the gamut is and all that kind of crap but having those conversations really enables me to see to make work differently because i'm kind of seeing what the machines that are making it were intended to do and then going well okay how do we sort of use that how do we use their strengths How do we kind of like subvert– how do we sneak in and get them to do things that they weren't really meant to do but still make nice stuff? And it's a bit like that with everything. Yeah, so
SPEAKER_01:that's– Well, my grandfather always said, beware of artists. That's subverting everything. Yeah. That's wonderful. Look, David, thank you so much for– No, that was really fun. I hope it was an interesting talk to listen to. It was a great chat. It was
SPEAKER_02:certainly– yeah, I think the fact just sort of going off and– Yakin is great.
SPEAKER_01:It's the best thing to do. And I think we'll put up on the show notes where the show's going to be, the opening dates, so that people can see it and click. Is it going to be– there's an invite only? I'm not
SPEAKER_02:sure.
SPEAKER_01:We'll have to find that out. We'll publish it. But anyway, it's going to be open for the month of Sala.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, that's a good thing. It's open for a whole month. For a whole month. And there'll be an artist talk and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, fabulous. Well, that's something people should keep an eye open for.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:and so yeah thank you so much for being a guest
SPEAKER_02:well thank you that was great fun