Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 46 - Chloe Ireland interview
Paul interviews Chloe Ireland of Catguts Universe. Chloe is a portrait and wedding photographer working from Brisbane, Australia. Chloe's style is truly unique and her work seems to stop the lab every time. With influences from Japanese culture, Ridley Scott, and her time in the Funeral industry, she produces some stunningly memorable and arresting work.
http://www.catgutsuniverse.com
https://www.instagram.com/catgutsphoto/
You know, listeners, welcome to episode 46 of the Atkins Labcast. In this episode, I interview Chloe Ireland of Cat Guts Photography. Chloe's based in Brisbane. She's a wedding and portrait photographer. Her work is, it really is something else. And the story behind the work is equally interesting. So I encourage you to not only listen to this, but follow the links and Back to her website and to some of the examples of the work we're talking about. It's better when you've got a visual of what she's all about. Enjoy. I'm on the phone now with Chloe Ireland. You've been in Brisbane your entire life, have you?
SPEAKER_00:But from the Sunshine Coast originally, which is only about an hour and a half away, but Brisbane ever since the uni days. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:right. So you moved down to the Big Smoke for... Right. We were talking about Japan. What is it about the aesthetic? What is it about Japan that draws Chloe over there?
SPEAKER_00:I think all the aesthetic, like you mentioned, is definitely a massive part of it. They have this weird mix of... the ultra futuristic side of Japan that some people imagine, but so much of it is so stuck in the nineties. Like there's a lot of things over there that have like aesthetically and functionally not been touched. So there's a lot of really amazing hotels you can visit that have fully mid century kit outs that haven't been upgraded in 30 years and crazy carpets. Like you see, you know, or like from the school bus, um, in the 90s and early 1000s. Stuff like that still exists everywhere. I mean, some of it's for the good. Other things, you know, like still using fax machines is probably not for the best, but... So what do you think causes that?
SPEAKER_01:What do you think causes that sort of hanging on to... I mean, is it that they built such beautiful quality in the 90s that they don't see a point in replacing it? Or is there a genuine aesthetic that holds the culture back there?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I mean, I know they definitely had quite a big bubble economy in the 80s or 90s. And then when that burst, I don't know if they've fully... economically recovered, so it might be more so, more in that direction. I'm not an expert on that kind of thing. But, yeah, it seems like a lot of stuff is just, they're just kind of make and do with what they've got. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I can see, like, you came to our attention and Kate said you have to interview Chloe. You've got to ask her some questions because there's a sense of style that we saw with your work. um, before you and I talked and before you chat with Henri and, and Kate and, um, uh, you know, through the Instagram messages and all that, there's a sense of style that is, uh, there's no one else like doing your, doing your work. And you can see there is a, a very delicate touch, a very quiet touch, um, I wouldn't say it's nostalgic. It's very modern, but it also, you can read into it that sort of quiet, and I can see your attraction to Japan in it. I can see that similar feeling. Is that the connection that I'm seeing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so in terms of how it correlates to my work. So what I have discovered about just spending weeks and months months shopping and plowing through stores in Japan is they, because they manufacture so many cameras and things over the years and they still have quite a strong like film photography culture over there. It's not that it's any less expensive than it is here, but they still produce a lot of like What's the word? Like practical equipment. So it's become trendy and there's been some new brands popping up that have made it more accessible to the wider market. But things like your classic black mist filters and all of those, you know, the glow and the starburst and things like that. In camera stores in Japan, you can buy it like they've got the filters in stock in every store. diameter of every size, uh, which for, you know, 20 bucks. And then you see online these, you see the Instagram ads of, you know, like these shiny new brands that are making the dreamy effects filter, which is essentially the same thing. But yeah, I found them in Japan years and years ago and it just seems to be a staple. It seems a little dusty. I will admit it's definitely the corners of big camera and you know, the Yodobashi camera store that people aren't touching as much, but there must still be an audience for it because that's how I kind of discovered how to incorporate those elements into my work. But the main kind of reason as to why I gravitated towards that is I'm like a massive Ridley Scott fan.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow. So
SPEAKER_00:that's where the– so between finding those practical elements in Japan, which I was able to stock up on and try and get a tax write-off, and watching those films as a kid, like I don't know if you've seen Legend– where Tim Curry plays the Prince of Darkness. I think it's Tom Cruise's first ever film. And Alien, Blade Runner, films like that where there's just the lighting is so well considered and there's so much colour and, like, glitter and goo and everything is just shiny and glowy and just has a really textural element. But then it's also... well back then 70s 80s 90s it's all an alien it's all practical effects
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah
SPEAKER_00:which is what i i really enjoy doing which is why you know when i discovered that physical market of all that the gear in japan i was so excited because i'm not a big photoshop girly in terms of you know manufacturing those looks post. I do everything that is in my photos is done in camera as much as possible. I like to keep the editing to a minimum.
SPEAKER_01:And tell me, do you think your clients feel that in the work and that's what they're attracted to, that you are doing things kind of an old school way that you're making things? You're not just pushing it together. But
SPEAKER_00:maybe. I mean, I know a lot of my clients, they probably do appreciate those elements but aren't quite sure how to articulate it in such a way. Like, they just see that they like it and want to go with it. I also get the comment a lot that some people mistake some of my work for film work. I don't know if that's...
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we've seen that. We've had that discussion here in the building as well. You know, people looking, oh, is that, are you shooting on film? But, you know, when you have a good look at it and if you know what you're doing, you can sort of see, no, no, no, this is not, this is another type of digital that's being used.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I, so it would, definitely what adds to that filmic quality is my... disgusting collection of filters I literally have a whole buffet upstairs I've got a whole system that's why I wear a bum bag to every shoot um Between that and I also shoot on Fujifilm. So Fujifilm, their mirrorless... So your
SPEAKER_01:Fuji camera, yep.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, from Fuji. So they have all their film stocks, the simulations pre-built in. So you're already automatically, your raw files are whatever film stock you select. So yeah, I definitely like that, but I don't think my anxiety could handle actually shooting film for a wedding. I'd like, I know and admire a few film wedding photographers, but I don't think... So
SPEAKER_01:are you an anxious person, Chloe?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes. Yeah, I'm an anxious list-writing, timeline-making. It's stripped up here so that when I'm on the shoot, it can come out nice and relaxed because I've given us that extra hour in the timeline for mishaps.
SPEAKER_01:That's brilliant. I mean, I think when you care deeply and you've got such a strong aesthetic with your work, the only way that really... can survive is if you're controlling the environment and you see it to the end. And I think in some ways perhaps that's why you're attracted to Japanese culture is that is that everything is thought through beautifully and quietly and under the water, the feet are going crazy, but on top it's all smooth and beautiful.
SPEAKER_00:No, absolutely. I like to over-prepare for sessions as much as possible, especially if it's weddings or destinations or things like that. If I can fly in the day before or have a day where I can... Even when I do shoots in my own city in Brisbane, I mean, I live in the CBD, so I'm not far away, but... I don't trust infrastructure, you know? Something that I shot last month, it might not be there anymore. So I've got to go for an extra location scout and make sure that my favourite rendered wall hasn't been hindered. I'm definitely not much of like a run and gun, just show up and wing it type of gal. If I can help it.
SPEAKER_01:How does that work with your website quote, I don't want to shoot your perfect wedding day? Like... You know, the whole idea of like a perfect wedding date suggests something that there's a wedding planner, there's a Serge out there who's making sure the whole thing goes together and flows smoothly versus the kind of like we've seen this with your Vegas shoot, which everybody adores in this building here. But it seems so rock star and loose and we're just winging it. It doesn't seem like you've held this whole thing together. How did you cope with that?
SPEAKER_00:I think I definitely can see how that would come across that way, that phrase on my website. I will say I have never hired a copywriter in my life and my website is, I will add a sentence periodically once every six months if I think of something smart. But I think the ability to, this is going to sound a little bit contradictory, but the ability to kind of wing it and go with the flow and, you know, get what I'm given on the day of a shoot, I'm much more able to adapt to that if I've prepared as much as possible. So usually when I say, so, you know, like I can't control what happens on a wedding day, even if it's the most, you know, controlled classic, you know, schedule wedding. If I've been to the venue, sometimes you'll just, pick things up where you'll notice that one little window and you'll check the time and be like okay it's about the same time as it's going to be tomorrow and I know a little stream of light's going to come through there just having those little bits of pre-empted knowledge helped me to um improvise a little bit better and the same with you know have getting an idea of a space of how tight or or not it is so I can pack appropriately or at least have the right lens on the body at the time instead of having to do a panic switch out last minute um the Vegas the Vegas one was interesting though we uh like I said I came in the day before the couple came in I I think the night before or the morning of their elopement, we actually shot that over two days because they really wanted desert and then they wanted a little bit in the city. So they got married at the Shawthing Chapel, which has exploded in popularity. They're doing amazing over there. That's not far from Fremont Street, kind of close to the Strip. And I looked at the logistics and some maps of where the desert is. I'm a big CSI Las Vegas girl as well. Just as a side, where I grew up, we didn't have much TV reception, only ABC and Channel 9. So it was a lot of Play School in Daria and a lot of CSI. So... I, in my mind, I knew Vegas very well. Also, funnily enough, that show in the early 2000s also employed some very Ridley Scott elements. They had a lot of flare filters on their cameras and a lot of glow in the lab. Yeah, yeah. Just in a very different context. So I thought, okay, well, you know, in the show, when they go bury a body in the desert, it takes a while. So we might not be able to go from Fremont Street to the desert seamlessly in one day, you know, if Hollywood is anything to go by. So we decided to split it up over two days, which ended up working out well because they still had to get their marriage license when they got to Vegas.
SPEAKER_01:Of course, but you can do that in an afternoon in Vegas.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes. So the first day of the shoot was we went to the registry office And drove out to the desert, which took a solid hour and a bit. Because also, I'm the kind of person that thinks about traffic times, possible delays, coyotes. So we did their desert shoot the evening before. And then we did the ceremony and the Elvis and the pink Cadillac the day of the wedding, which I think worked out well. Much better. And I mean, that was my call. I know, you know, some people are very like stick to the hours, stick to exactly perfectly to, you know, your contracted time. But I just thought it would be so much less stressful for both parties if we could break it up a little bit. And I mean, we've traveled all the way to America. We're not going to be flying home to Brisbane the next day. So yeah, it was definitely worth it.
SPEAKER_01:So you were comfortable in Vegas?
SPEAKER_00:I wouldn't say I was comfortable in America anywhere, really. It's just such a different, you know, socio-political climate to what we're spoiled with here. So, yeah, it was... It was interesting. There was definitely certain points during the shoot on the second day after we finished in the chapel where we just thought we'd wander down the street. And it was interesting to see, you know, you'd kind of get 100 metres down the road and the whole kind of landscape would change very suddenly. And then all of a sudden there was a lot of abandoned-looking motels and people... suddenly were taking a good look at me wearing my two cameras and my big backpack and going, okay, guys, let's maybe chuck a wee here.
SPEAKER_01:There's a big, big line between having money and no money over there.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. It's a real
SPEAKER_01:challenge. Yeah. We're so lucky. We're so lucky where we are. I think we take it for granted. Of course, everything we're presented with America, you know, you do see the ugly side, but you don't believe it until you're actually driving between places these major cities.
SPEAKER_00:It's jarring, yeah. The places we probably enjoyed the most were when we went outcountry, went to the Pocono Mountains. We went to this amazing... honeymoon hotel from the 1950s called Cove Haven. And you're only allowed to stay there as a couple. And all of the rooms have those heart-shaped bathtubs and the multifaceted mirror surfaces, very sexy, very kitsch. Places like that I loved because, you know, there was only us and a handful of raccoons and, you know, old lovers there. But yeah, the cities were definitely intense. We didn't spend much time outside after dark.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell me, with weddings and elopements and that, how do you look at that industry? I think elopements are a really interesting opportunity because weddings are$80,000,$100,000 extravaganzas these days. They're crazy, aren't they? Do you have more of an interest in elopements and couples wanting to do interesting things?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. I think post-COVID, because people had the time during the lockdown, because they were obviously forced to not have their$80,000 wedding, they had that time to kind of... re-evaluate what they actually deeply wanted to do in terms of getting married. So a lot of my couples coming out of COVID opted for either an elopement because they were also because they were itching to travel again or even just a micro wedding of maybe 10 to 20 guests max. And there's definitely, I feel more a little bit of anxiety that comes up with those clients in the lead up just because they're concerned about perception or family dramas or any of those kinds of elements in the lead up. But then after the fact and even on the day, I've never had a client be unhappy with the fact that they've chosen to do an elopement or a really small intimate wedding. I think that it just leaves everyone so much... happier there's a lot of stress
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_00:there's less stress there's less people to be concerned about you're spending less but at the same time you can afford to still invest in those small elements or those less elements that are really important to you so you know if you want to get a ring designed for each other for example instead of just going to michael hill or same with dress or photography or things you know those things that are going to be in the immortalized side of your wedding day, they can still invest in instead of, Oh, I've got to pay my florist for 25 posies for these tables, you know, whereas it's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:And you feel like the end of it, what what's left. And, and you do, you have to ask the question of what's the wedding for any rate. Like, is it, And for a lot of cultures, it's for the family to be shown. But I think these days, the cost of it is kind of falling on the bride and groom. And they're perhaps looking at it going, I kind of like my family, but, you know, are they really my people? And it's the thing that's sort of hovering around these days, this feeling of, you know, they weren't so great to me perhaps, or what am I putting this big thing on? And yes, you're right, the end of the day, it's, You're left with all this stuff and all this energy pours out for
SPEAKER_00:what? It's definitely, I think a lot of people feel obligated that a wedding is a family reunion. We'll see you at the next one, which is the next cousin to get engaged or whatnot. They're facilitating that next family reunion, which is kind of ridiculous these days when it's$200 a head. Or something obscene. But, I mean, I say to my couples when they're– and it's the same with these venues that can be stunning but very expensive to facilitate what they do sometimes. I tell people, you know, if you have a good photographer and an outfit that you feel good in, then your wedding photos are going to look good wherever you are.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00:We can be in– like the tiniest corner of a garden and get just as beautiful photos as if you book the crazy, you know, venue that you see on, what is it? All of those things, you know, all of the, all the famous wedding Instagrams.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, totally. So, so tell me, how do your clients find you? What's the, how do you connect with these people? Because they all look so cool. They all look so cool. Are you just like a magnet for all that stuff?
SPEAKER_00:If I am a magnet, it's a very passive magnet because I am no business mogul or like marketing genius in the slightest. I think... I'm lucky in a sense where Brisbane is very small, so kind of it's an everyone-knows-everyone type city. There's always, you know, no more than a few degrees of separation between you and the next cool nerd from somewhere else. So a lot of my clients are connected to each other, no matter how vague. They're always a friend of a friend or a bridesmaid or a sister or whatnot. But in saying that, there are some people who– have no social media and have Googled Brisbane wedding photographer. And by some miracle found me because again, I am not an SEO strategist in the league. Um, but no, I don't know. I, I don't know if it's because I had a small internet following prior to becoming a quote unquote photographer. Um, but, But I'm very lucky that the majority of them are very like-minded people. Like I think I've written somewhere before that the majority of my clientele are either like elder emos or hot nerds. So, you know, they're Japan people or like I see them at the concerts or something along those lines. But no, I'm very lucky that I tend to attract the type of kind of clientele that I would like. be hanging out with and enjoy taking photos of anyway. So
SPEAKER_01:tell me, I just, you just said you had a bit of an internet presence before you became a photographer. What's, tell me about that. Oh,
SPEAKER_00:nothing too wild and crazy. I was certainly not an influencer by any means, but I did dabble in like a little bit of YouTube, like before when I could be bothered when we do Japan, I'd film a little bit. So I'd put a couple of little, you know, vlogs on YouTube of us, just exploring and eating and walking through cemeteries and all the kind of things that I love to do in Japan. And I made some connections in Japan that way as well. And just by association, my Instagram grew a little bit, my personal one. I keep that completely private these days, but that's kind of how I migrated an audience to CACPADS Photo, I guess you could say. So yeah, so I had like kind of always under 10,000 followers, but I guess that's still fairly significant in terms of a local audience because most people that I interacted with were still from, you know, at least Australia. But then the way that I became Cat Guts as a... Do you want me to explain cat guts? Yeah, I do. That was my
SPEAKER_01:question. Question number 57 is where are the cats? Henri's like, I haven't seen a cat. You know, like what's going on? Why are there guts involved? And I'm like, okay, I'm going to ask Chloe. She's going to tell me. Go for it.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. I'll tell you the cat guts story and then that will lead into how I accidentally became a photographer as a job. So when... Okay. In high school, I worked at Network Video. Oh, yeah. Hence all the Ridley Scott content. I had a lot of time to watch movies in the background. Yeah, yeah, so Network's
SPEAKER_01:like Blockbuster here in Adelaide.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Or Blockbuster Worldwide. Network Video was the purple and orange franchise. May they rest in peace. So when I was in grade 12, Whippet came out, which was this film with Elliot Page, and they were playing roller derby. And it was kind of around the late 20s, like 2000s, 2010s, I guess, where roller derby really took a surge. And I just thought it was the coolest thing ever. And I had to play roller derby no matter what. But you can't play it until you're 18 because of... Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:smashing each other.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because it's the most violent form of roller skating you can do. Because that's what roller
SPEAKER_01:skating means is more violence,
SPEAKER_00:right? Yeah, more bruises, more hip checks and more fishnets. So when I moved to Brisbane to go to uni after grade 12 and turned 18, I joined roller derby. And they kind of had a similar structure to... MySpace names, if you remember that era where it was, you know, your scene name was something kind of edgy but also kind of cute, kind of a mix like that. And so I was thinking, okay, what's something that's edgy but cute and also relevant to me? And that's when I thought of cat guts because, you know, it's already a tangible thing and I'm a cat girl. I have two cats. Okay, there we go.
SPEAKER_01:Cats tick.
SPEAKER_00:Yep, so that was my roller derby name. That's how it was born. I was cat guts in my roller derby career, which was quite short, but I did give it a crack.
SPEAKER_01:What ended it? What ended the roller derby?
SPEAKER_00:I just got squished by too many ladies. I was a very small girl at the time. That'll do
SPEAKER_01:it.
SPEAKER_00:Getting crushed one too many times. But no, I did have a lot of fun. And so then... with, you know, Instagram usernames. I don't know, what's it going to be called? Do I call it Chloe or do I call it Cat Guts? And so that had just been my internet moniker since then for forever. And I just had the one personal account. And, you know, we post pictures of the cats or of our travels in Japan and things like that. And the apartment we lived in at the time, which was maybe 2017-ish, we had a cafe underneath us. And you know how you get friendly with your local barista girls. And one of them said to me, she was like, hey, like I'm getting married. Like we don't have a lot of money. It's kind of a backyard soiree. Your photos on Instagram are cool. Would you shoot a wedding? And at this point I had no business plan. presence I was just I was just being me and so I said oh you know yeah I was just I was It was just cat guts, question mark. And I said, look, I can do it. But as long as you have zero expectations, because I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. And she said, yep, no, that's fine. I trust you. And she said, I don't have a lot of money, but I could give you$500. And I was like, oh, my God.
SPEAKER_01:I'm going to be a millionaire.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so much money. And I think maybe she asked me about something. six months out from her wedding. And so I was like, okay, how the hell do you shoot a wedding? So I'm on the university of YouTube. I'm on every wedding blog that's ever existed. I'm trying to find photos that I like and, you know, studying them and making mental lists of like close up, mid shot, wide shot, get something like this, take your prisms, take your blah, blah, blahs. Um, and yeah, I rocked up to this wedding and, um, I winged it and it worked out. And then it just kind of snowballed from there. So
SPEAKER_01:that's 2017, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And so I thought, oh, well, I should make a separate account. And I was like, what's my brand name? And it's like, well, do you choose a fluffy name like a wedding photographer should have, like, you know, white dove name?
SPEAKER_01:Sounds like a funeral home.
SPEAKER_00:Or something like that. So yeah, I'm thinking, I don't know what to call a wedding business. So I just kept it as cat guts and just added the photo. And yeah, that's how that happened. Oh, that
SPEAKER_01:makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:That's how my business was born. Did
SPEAKER_01:you struggle with
SPEAKER_00:it? And now it's just gone too far. I can't rebrand now. It's too late.
SPEAKER_01:No, well, I mean, I was thinking about, and I've, know like for someone who's got their name on the building here um we're always thinking about do you have because photography is a really personal thing i mean what we do is not so but photography is really personal when i would think people would be looking for chloe if they were looking for your work you know but if you and this is i mean this is not a thing but my brain goes well how will you ever expand and and how will you ever take on staff like What wedding photographer has staff these days? I mean, you collaborate maybe. And if you certainly have staff, what happens is your brand gets diluted. It turns to, you know, so people are going to be asking for you and they know your cat guts and, Do you sometimes get people to second shoot with you or does someone work under that?
SPEAKER_00:I haven't got there just yet. I've never second shot for anyone and I haven't had anyone second shoot for me. There's probably a few weddings that I can think of where it would have been helpful, but no, it's not something that I've considered at this point. But no, but, and sometimes, you know, I'll get to weddings and the groom or, you know, someone I haven't had much to do with, they, they don't know my real name. And so they just assume like I am Khadgar somewhere. That's fine. That's fine. I mean, the name, it doesn't, doesn't really make sense and it doesn't really relate to what my body of work is, but it's also weird enough that people remember it. And I find that. It really is. That helps, helps stick out.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's huge. If you just look at around the, you know, anyone who's listed, any list of photographers, it just jumps out. And so I think it's a smart one. It just seemed to work really, really well. So how do you, you know, we talked about your clients, it's sort of a bit of a osmosis, you know, people find out. But how do you, like before the wedding or before the port or whatever it is, do you make that connection with them and make sure that they're your people because i gather a lot of the people you photograph they're your people you know like you could you'd know straight away if someone's not going to work with you um wouldn't you
SPEAKER_00:yeah so when i'm onboarding clients for i mean when it comes to quick portrait shoots or a family shoot i feel like you can usually facilitate that for someone without being too personally involved with them. But for a wedding or an elopement, I definitely do take that time to bond with them as much as possible. So after I get that initial inquiry, I either want to get them on the phone if they don't live locally or if they live locally, I'm on a coffee date with them in person. So that's usually a pretty good way And I think as well, what helps attract the right people in the first place is just showing up online as non-polished as I am in real life. So there's no facade of me as this, you know, perfect little wedding package. I am, you know, just one strange lady doing things and rolling around on the ground with a camera. So yeah, I haven't really had anyone that I've had to vehemently turn away. But, you know, occasionally you'll get a client that will see your work and say, I like what that looks like. Don't really care for... rest of the process just if you can show up and make it look like that that's okay and occasionally i'll i'll look after those clients but they're few and far between so it's not it doesn't feel like i'm just producing work for the sake of it but i would say for the most part my clients are people that like i'm still in contact with which is also really rewarding because they do the typical thing where maybe in a few years they have a baby or something like that then We come back for a family shoot and things like that. So it's nice to stay really connected.
SPEAKER_01:And it's like what you charge. I don't want to know any details particularly, but does that ever get in the way of getting the work?
SPEAKER_00:No, my friends say I should charge more all the time, but I feel like I'm in a... Still
SPEAKER_01:charging$500 for a wedding.
SPEAKER_00:So much money. No
SPEAKER_01:wonder you're busy.
SPEAKER_00:I'm fighting for my life. I feel like my pricing is in a sweet spot where it's definitely, for some people, one of the bigger investments of their wedding, especially because I'm starting to lean more towards the elopements and the micros, so they have less big charges. So I'm definitely kind of a luxury item for them, but I'm not priced... as a luxury service because I feel like that attracts a different kind of caliber of clientele. So it's tricky because I know that I, yeah, I could probably justify charging a little bit more, but at the same time, I don't want to price out like my people or make myself too unattainable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I've, I've heard that from a lot of, um, a lot of photographers who've got their sweet spot. They, um, And look, I don't... Like, everyone needs more of everything. But I don't think the world actually needs more of everything. And I certainly don't think young couples need more, more, more, more. I think it's a lovely way to be. And if you're still working with those... Otherwise, you know, you can just end up getting the arseholes and the rich arseholes. And who needs that? I've heard plenty of people find themselves pricing them into those brackets. And, of course, financially, it's great. But then... You know, you're kind of sitting around waiting for a tip afterwards in that American culture way, and then it all becomes so vague and awful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's just I don't want to disparage any previous clients or anything, but not that my prices have changed, but sometimes you'll work with someone who is kind of, they are in that that that level where they're they're a luxury client per se like you know if i was charging 20 grand or something for for weddings they would pay it and i i do find there is like a you don't get treated the same
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_00:don't get treated the same by the rich folks whereas my middle class elder emos um They're very appreciative. And I don't think I've articulated that very well at all. But I find my pricing is at a point where it's not an everyday expense. It's absolutely expensive for sure. But a lot of my clients are the type where I was one of the few non-negotiables. Like, you know, we'll set... Well, you're a priority
SPEAKER_01:for them, clearly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like, we won't buy bloody linen table runners because we can put that extra$500 towards the photographer. You know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah,
SPEAKER_00:yeah. That's wonderful. And then there are... Sorry, you go.
SPEAKER_01:I just want to say, do you think it'll... Does it work for you? Like, as a business, you're comfortable with the way it all functions and, you know, you're getting enough out of it. paying the rent and all that kind of, I mean, this, this sounds like, I don't want to, I'm not digging and I don't want to, I just want to find out how it works. Well, I'm just thinking about the people who admire your work or listen to this podcast and be like, they'll look up, they look up to you and, It's nice to know that, you know, it all works well for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely in like a fortunate position sort of thing, but it is definitely enough to live off. I mean, I'm sure if I wanted to kind of increase by a couple of grand, I would be, you know, I'd be joining the girlies in Lake Como in the summertime in Italy. I'm not hustling that hard, but also that's just myself as a, I know myself as a person and I don't really want to be grinding for in-person sales and stuff like that. I would much, I don't know, the caliber at which I'm working and charging is is what I like because I also don't like to take on more than you like four weddings a month is my absolute maximum like I'm my I'm creatively fried if I do any more because I feel like if I do if I take on too much then I don't actually have the time and emotional capacity to give each client which I think is really important um You're making a
SPEAKER_01:genuine connection with these people. The day for you and them is you're along for the ride as you're invested in it. That's emotionally really challenging. A lot of photographers struggle with that over the years. It's a big thing. Exactly. But it gets advanced photography.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And, you know, if you don't know your clients well, then why would you care? about how deep and personal of an experience they're having on the day. And sometimes you'll notice that if you're working alongside someone that is maybe part of a larger company and they're just the person that's been sent out to service that day, not particularly that couple, there's no kind of natural banter and there's no feeling like, you as a vendor are just kind of part of the wedding party rather than a staff member who's just standing around with your recording device being very stiff but um and I'm sorry again Paul I'm such a tangent girl but I think tangent
SPEAKER_01:away you love a tangent
SPEAKER_00:well just in terms of wanting to have the capacity to serve everyone at an equal level. My previous career before I went full-time into photography was I worked in the funeral industry since I was 19. It was like my high school dream, Paul. I wanted to be a mortician. I was that
SPEAKER_01:pretty
SPEAKER_00:girl. You're
SPEAKER_01:amazing. I'm more in love with you than I thought I was when this started. Oh, my God. So this is when the elder emo started. You've gone from young emo. I
SPEAKER_00:was as emo as it got, as emo as it got. So yeah, in high school, I, well, in primary school, I wanted to be a taxidermist. because I learned about mortality. And then I looked at my cat and I thought, shit, she's going to die first. What are we going to do about it?
SPEAKER_01:You're going to stuff her.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Didn't end up stuffing Binks, but that was the catalyst. And then obviously we don't exactly have a hunting taxidermy culture in Australia as much as overseas. So that just kind of evolved from animals to humans. And so after I moved to Brisbane, I just started working at a funeral home and was there for years and years. But weirdly enough, a lot of my skills from funeral directing directly translate into weddings. And I think that's what makes me a really good addition to a wedding vendor team. I totally get it. I know this word gets thrown around a lot, but I am like... I am trained in empathy. I have taken many empathy courses in my funeral career. Sure. Yeah, very good at kind of reading the room, reading feelings, de-escalating things before they happen, and just being a calm beacon during such a high voltage emotional, like emotionally charged day as a wedding. Good or bad. weddings are very emotionally charged and it can be on either end of that spectrum.
SPEAKER_01:I've not been to a wedding that I haven't boohooed at. I'll even boohoo at TV ones. There's so much happening at them and there's so much promise. This sounds very corny, but so much hope in the air and optimism and all that kind of stuff. That's the really, really lovely thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, as a wedding guest, the ceremony is my favourite part to shoot as well. But no, I totally agree. So, you know, just having the ability to kind of take in everything that's happening and compartmentalise the good and the bad and try and kind of control what i can try and mask the negative from the couple as best i can as well especially in the lead up in the getting ready and things like there's always drama there's always you know divorced parent drama or someone's dress is burst open all of that um i feel like i'm at the point yeah but i've i've seen it all on like both the spectrum of life that's amazing at rationalising, kind of helping people, guide them through the day. Yeah, like a wedding doula.
SPEAKER_01:I've had a lot to do in the last few years with death doulas. We do a lot of work for Heartfelt and it's just breathtaking. Like I've been whipped into these rooms with these teams of women who know how to deal with this stuff and I just feel like a baby in amongst that emotional skill that these guys have. And, you know, I've been to their conferences and I've sat on the corner. And also I've been involved with birth photography a lot as well, as far as helping the Birth Photography Association. And I'm like, you know, the only guy in this room of stuff going on, I mean, there's no live birth happening, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't bring a live birth to the conference for fun. And, you know, I'm like, I'm meant to see this like I'm such a baby with it all. It's incredible. So anyway, hang on. I got another question for you. Yes. We've talked about Ridley.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:You haven't mentioned David Lynch and Twin Peaks in your life somewhere.
SPEAKER_00:You know what's so strange? Twin Peaks is one of the few shows that I haven't sunk my teeth into. I haven't done like Twin Peaks, X-Files, Twilight Zone, that side of things. I don't know if that's all David Lynch, but... That's kind of the universe I imagine. Well, no, it's
SPEAKER_01:inspired. David was inspired by Twilight Zone. Yes. You know, Lynch was definitely inspired by it. I think every modern writer had some Twilight Zone in them. But, you know, the dream sequence, well, you don't because you haven't seen it, but the dream sequences in Twin Peaks, you know, I'm just looking at it, like looking at work going, oh, that's Chloe. She's been in, you know, in the red room, you know, like she's in there. I
SPEAKER_00:don't know it. I don't know. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:wow.
SPEAKER_00:I should, you know, I should put that on my list because I always need something long with many seasons when I'm editing because obviously I'm sitting here for so long. I actually just watched The Sopranos in its entirety for the very first time. Oh, we're in the middle of that with our kids. It's so fun, isn't it? All the gabagool. Isn't
SPEAKER_01:it beautiful? Yeah. It's just like the love– like the strange love in that house, you know, and Tony yelling at the kids and it's crazy stuff,
SPEAKER_00:isn't it? Yeah, it's good fun. It actually, I don't know if Alan Ball's involved in Sopranos, but it reminded me a lot of Six Feet Under. Oh, yeah. Just that ultra realism and then they would have all the... surrealist dream sequences. But no, but to go back to your question, David Lynch, I honestly have never really delved into him, so I'm not as familiar. I'm
SPEAKER_01:sorry then, because I probably screwed the rest of your life up by hooking you in that direction. I mean, you might not like it, but I don't know anyone who's not been just sort of certainly plays with your mind long after you've seen
SPEAKER_00:it and
SPEAKER_01:twists you up a bit.
SPEAKER_00:I am always ready to consume long-form television because I'm sitting here editing a long time. But no, apart from Ridley, like Jim Henson's films, like Labyrinth was my all-time favourite film as a child, like Labyrinth and Dark Crystal. Same thing with like the glitter and the goo and just the dreamy, you know, everything. And the practical
SPEAKER_01:effects.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, I wish there were more practical effects in film. Things with CGI just really turned me off. Same with, like, AI. Sometimes people, it's got to the point now where clients who are well-meaning will send me inspiration photos and I'm like, honey, that ain't
SPEAKER_01:from the real world. I know, I'm looking at, you know, Lily Roof, your model who sometimes
SPEAKER_00:appears. Lily, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Lily, I don't know if that's her last name or whether that's just her Instagram
SPEAKER_00:handle. That's her, yep.
SPEAKER_01:Ruvay. She, I only just saw this when you mentioned AI, I just made the connection. She could be amazing. an AI person she is so amazing looking
SPEAKER_00:and she always has been I've known her since school and she just has one of those faces and she also has the makeup um and you know like the costuming skills to just transform herself into any era into any genre she's yeah she's amazing
SPEAKER_01:Actually, that photograph, that series of her on the salt flats, I think it's salt flats, was the first that I personally sort of was drawn into your visual world. You know, that was a thing that I went, who is this? What is going on here? What am I seeing? No,
SPEAKER_00:that was... Oh, sorry.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I was going to say, I took it to one of the women in photography workshops my brain's just gone to mush. Kim Vooling runs it. Anyway, I took it along and all of the photographers were just mesmerized by that series of work. And they were just like, who, what, when, where, how? And I met, I don't know, you probably just pick up some followers. There's nothing worse than photographers looking at photographers, frankly. There's no inspiration circle, you know, you just like, just chasing each other's tail around. I can see your work is from well beyond other people's work. And that's, That's what I found fascinating. Anyway, that's what drew me. Lily's work, your work on the salt. Anyhow, you were going into
SPEAKER_00:tangentialized things. So that particular shoot, so it wasn't a salt flat. That is just a local lake out in Bush about an hour away from Brisbane. That entire shoot was an absolute accident. We were trying to find a field and fields are strangely hard to come by. You know, when you're on Pinterest and you see a gorgeous canola field or, you know, just a big open dance. Yeah, that's not Brisbane. It's not Brisbane at all, mate. And so we just went for a little bit of a drive and she'd just pack some clothes in the car in case we did find somewhere. And, you know, we were kind of going back through some country roads. Nothing was popping out. And then before we knew it, we were ascending a mountain. I think it was Mount Cotton. Actually, no, I'm not even going to attempt the name of the mountain, but we were going up a mountain to the point where we lost all reception. So, you know, when you lose all your G's and the map just shows blue and green, it's not even showing the names of the roads anymore.
SPEAKER_01:All the G's go away.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Bill Gates
SPEAKER_01:takes them back for a minute.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so we're both thinking, I'm driving, she's on map duty and there's no turning around. We're on this tiny little curvy, crusty road up this mountain. And I said, and she goes, oh, what should we do? You know, we've been driving for ages, but like the sun's going to set. And I said, oh, is there any, you know, big thing of water? Like, is there a big bit of blue that you could maybe direct me towards? Because at least inland water might be cool. And that's how we found that spot. was her just going, yeah, turn left soon. And we came across that. That doesn't sound very
SPEAKER_01:controlled and pre-planned of you.
SPEAKER_00:No. So Lily is a friend. So that was more, that was a hangout, experimental shoot. It wasn't a client, you know, planned. There was no money or anything involved. And so we pulled up at this random spot and it was just this huge lake. And there was some oldies parked up with their caravan, nobody else there. And it was winter. And in winter, we get such beautiful colors in the sky. So we just sat around in the shallows and shot as the sky changed. And yeah, that was one of my most beautiful flukes was that shoot.
SPEAKER_01:It didn't feel like you just struck it. It just, yeah, it's remarkable stuff. And I know Kate, of course, she found it. And so, yeah, she's got great taste and ability to, I don't know, things just come to her, these sorts of things. And that's why we said, hey, can we have some of this stuff as an example? And, of course, it just stops everyone. So now talking about such things, how do you bring– like products into the mix. Now I've looked at your Instagram and you're showing your work. How does products become a part of what you're trying to give to your clients? This isn't the part of the show where it's an ad for Atkins at all. I'm just curious about, because a lot of people that listen and ask us questions is how does that become, is it financially a part of a thing that's important to the process? Is it an afterthought? Is it what makes you happy seeing people getting things to the wall? Is it, you know, how does it fit in?
SPEAKER_00:So I would say how products tie into my work is in ties for entirely selfish reasons. And that's purely just because I think it looks better. And I think being physically presented with photos is so much more special than just being sent a link to your inbox and there's your wedding. I know for our, I love our wedding photos and our photographer was brilliant. It was back in 2016, but at the end of the day, after all the months and months of anticipation, she just, you know, emailed me a Dropbox link. Wow. Okay. That's, that's it. So the way that I present for all of my weddings and elopements is I do the five by seven linen box and then I'll do like a custom engraving with the couple's name on into the linen and do a couple of... It's wild, by
SPEAKER_01:the way. Those engravings, always wild. Everybody here goes, look what Chloe's done. I
SPEAKER_00:know. Look, it's to my own detriment. I do them custom for every client, which I know is probably the least efficient way I could do it in terms of a business, but... You know, if someone doesn't have poppies in their bouquet, why would I engrave poppies on their box? Totally. I just think it's such... The whole event, the production of the photos, I feel like everything is so personal that they deserve to have something that is them and not just, like, me and my logo, you know? Yeah. So I... I'm not much of like a digital artist myself. So what I do is I just, I purchase, like I license a bunch of illustrations that I can, but they just come as elements so I can play around and make it unique for everyone. You know, then sometimes I remember there was one last year. I don't know if you remember this one, but the couple had, First of all, the couple was in the hot nerds category of my clients. As
SPEAKER_01:opposed to the elder emos,
SPEAKER_00:the hot nerds. As opposed to the elder emos. And so they were a very big Japan video game, anime kind of couple. And they had... little mascots that they'd drawn for each other one was a a tanuki which is like a japanese raccoon dog and the other was an otter and one of their friends had made little ceramic sculptures of those creatures as their cake toppers oh so cute and obviously i'd taken photos of it and i was like I know immediately that this is going to be the engraving for their box. It has to be the tanuki and the otter. So I found like a random man in Europe or Africa on Fiverr and I paid him to draw the sketch. It took weeks. He was not very good at communication, but he did a great job in the end. I just sent him a picture of these... 3D critters and I was like, can you please give me a PSD file?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, so I definitely spend way too much time on the box design.
SPEAKER_01:That's a really beautiful thing though. It's those little things. I think you need to take the way too much time, concern out of it. You might be hearing other photographers judge you or someone who said, what are you doing? I think it's really beautiful. I think The world needs more of that stuff, not less, you know. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:I just, yeah, there's definitely, I feel like when I go online on social media and look at, you know, any kind of like photography business page or anything like that, it's all about efficiency now and outsourcing and, you know, optimising shoots and presets. And I'm just like, I am working at this. point one percent of this kind of capacity but no but my boxes I try not to but sometimes I I over order prints just because I can't stop myself but then the majority of the that well sorry the entire gallery is on the USB which is also custom engraved because I can't help myself and I also have my own tissue paper it's all very you know the branding is strong but And then the box as well, you know, I encourage people, they can use it as like a little trinket box or something if they've got their earrings from the wedding or if someone else gives them any cards or stationery or whatnot. And I just think people... Now that people know my boxes per se, they get really excited to receive them as much as my photos are ready. It's, oh my God, I get my cat guts box. And, you know, opening it is like a present because obviously no one knows exactly what their box design is going to look like, what their photos are, opening their little, all my personalized stickers. And I'm a big stationary girl.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that comes with being a fan of Japan as well, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. It all comes back. It does. Yeah, that's what I do for everyone. And I just, because I'm an album maker. I've never, I haven't delved into the world of, like, creating an album with you guys yet or anything like that. But I'm, like, I will go to my local and I'll print out all 200 photos that I've taken on my holiday and then I will come home get a big black um what are they called dry mount album with the last pages between them and i will agonize paul i will sit there for hours like imagining the layouts of each photos for each pages and then individually sticking them all in. I love. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:then do you hand write underneath the pictures and stuff like that?
SPEAKER_00:No, I don't. I keep it a little art house, a little bit, you know, mysterious. But yeah, so I have cupboards just full of the big black Drive Mount albums. So I'm very passionate about it because so many people, you know, they're willing to pay for the photos and take the time to do the shoot. And then they just live on their phone. I
SPEAKER_01:know.
SPEAKER_00:And I just feel like that's the least valuable way to have a photograph.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. Because on the phone, there's a whole lot of other crap. You know, there's where you park the car. There's the bill. There's the, you know, there's the dodgy texts. You know, there's a lot of stuff on a phone that happens. And mixing up some treasure in there, too, is, like, gross.
SPEAKER_00:I know. And, you know, if your photos only exist digitally... When are you going to pull them out and look at them? Maybe on your anniversary when you do your obligatory Instagram post. Yeah. Happy two years. I love my husband. It's like, well, if he was up on the wall, you could remember that every day. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:yeah, yeah. I get
SPEAKER_00:that. And so, yeah, so I try to do it as a... I'd like a jumping off point for people to feel encouraged to print their photos, if not to frame, then even just to look at as tangible prints, I think is really valuable. Like I still have clients from like some of my first ever weddings. One of them texted me the other day. I think it was the wedding after the barista. So yeah, super fresh
SPEAKER_01:yeah right
SPEAKER_00:and she said oh we just got one of our wedding photos printed and framed in our hallway because we just bought a house and you know we've been allowed to put a nail in the wall and it's like my favorite thing to look at it every day i just think that's
SPEAKER_01:so
SPEAKER_00:cool
SPEAKER_01:So what else do you do? Do you use any of the gallery services like Pixie Set or Shootproof or anything? Do you put any photos up there so people order stuff or do you?
SPEAKER_00:Honestly, no, I've never really kind of deeply delved into that side of things. I use Pixie Set purely just to like deliver my smaller shoots and my family or just portrait sessions just because it's, Good looking. But no, I honestly, I need a little bit of probably education on how to kind of market to make that kind of transition to connect. Because I know Atkins has a plugin or some side of affiliation with it. Yeah, we're doing the
SPEAKER_01:work for them.
SPEAKER_00:I've never done it. It's just one of those things that's always been on the list. And the list lives in a very deep recess of my mind.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll say, you know, we're getting close to having taken like an hour, more than an hour of your time up, right? So I'm going to say, because you're about to go under the radar for a little bit, right? Yeah. Under the radar time, I'll give you a chance to do these things as well. Aside from staring at your future that's going to be in your arms soon
SPEAKER_00:for a little bit. I'm going to have to learn how to take photos for myself. which is always such a struggle. Even taking photos on holiday, I feel like I've got to force myself to do it. That's probably the one downside to being a full-time photographer is when it comes to just your own personal work. You're like, oh, yeah, I've seen it. I know, I
SPEAKER_01:know. You get blase, don't you?
SPEAKER_00:I know. And I'll carry around, you know, an extra five kilos of gear with me when I'm on holidays and whatnot. But I'm like, oh, God. All right. It just feels like an effort. But I will definitely have to learn to get over that so I can capture, you know, my newborn son.
SPEAKER_01:How lovely. And when are you due?
SPEAKER_00:Mid-August. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. That's exciting.
SPEAKER_00:I'm shooting up until the end of June and then I very optimistically am hoping to complete all my edits in July. And then, yeah, and then he's due the middle of August if he... He's good and waits.
SPEAKER_01:Stays on schedule.
SPEAKER_00:Stays on schedule. We'll see. We'll see. Well,
SPEAKER_01:you know, you've also got, I mean, besides the editing, you've also got all the Twin Peaks now to watch as well, which is going to totally stuff you up.
SPEAKER_00:I know. I know. But, yeah, but no, I'm looking forward to it. And I, yeah, I don't know. In my work in, like, the lead up to that, yeah, It's actually all micro weddings and elopements is all I have left in terms of the bigger jobs, which I'm really thankful for just because they are a lot less demanding in terms of the scale. So hopefully my hobbling around. will not be quite as detrimental when there's not 80 to 100 guests in my way. Of
SPEAKER_01:course, of course. And you'll find a way forward too. Like there's a little period with newborns where you've just got to do newborn. And then everyone benefits when, you know, you're doing the things you love doing, which clearly... is taking pictures and doing things for other people. And you'll fall back into it and it'll fit into your life. I'm sure you'll make it fit absolutely beautifully. Well, that's really exciting, Chloe. I'm thrilled and I'm so grateful for the hour or so that you've given me. I've learned so much about you. I had no idea that you were a funeral home girl.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was.
SPEAKER_01:That was the breaking news that made me smile a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, lots of parallels, funerals and weddings. You'd be surprised.
SPEAKER_01:I totally get it. Lots of transferable skills. Huge emotions. Correct, correct. Well, look, thank you so much for your time. And look, we wish you all the best over these next few months. And if there's anything we can do to help you through that period, Period. We can do it from Adelaide.
SPEAKER_00:Help!
SPEAKER_01:I'll start knitting little tiny beanies or something.
SPEAKER_00:I've already started sewing our Halloween photo shoot outfits as a family, so things are coming together. You're
SPEAKER_01:going to have to approve me as following your private account, I think.
SPEAKER_00:I
SPEAKER_01:don't want to miss out on this stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I'm honestly, I'm actually a little bit... I'm not too sure about, like, posting the child. I'm still kind of tossing up if I want to do that.
SPEAKER_01:That's tough, isn't it, these days, when you think about the likeness being used for things and
SPEAKER_00:publicity. Just scary people on the internet, you know. I know, I know. When you just, you know, the people that are usually the ones interacting with your posts are the positive, well-meaning people, but sometimes you don't know who's lurking.
SPEAKER_01:I know. I know. I mean, from someone who's tortured our daughters from, and they're 20 and 18 right now, their entire life. So Liz turns up in all our product photography. You'll see her in her hands. And I don't know if we did the right thing. I don't know. I just don't. there's some things in life. And I think being personally, I think being a part visually being a part of it, it's what we do. It's what we've always done. I just can't imagine a world without it, but I'm incredibly privileged. And, um, The desire to switch it all off as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, look, I was also a child of being on the camera because I was an only grandchild for a very long time. And my granddad was the camera person in the family. So every visit, there was always photo time. And then when, you know, film left and digital took over, he was always upgrading. And look at this memory card. I can take more photos now. Yay. Cool.
SPEAKER_01:So
SPEAKER_00:yeah, so I, and look, I turned out okay, but that was without the social media elements. So I don't know, maybe that has a big thing. This does not like flow into the end of the conversation whatsoever, but can I tell you one other inspiration in wedding photography that I have from being a funeral director?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I'd love to hear it. Go for it.
SPEAKER_00:Fabulous. I tried to weave it in before and then I just was yapping about something else. No good at job interviews, I tell you. So when I was in the funeral industry, you'd get a call at 3 a.m. to go to some nursing home or some home to bring someone into care. And especially in a nursing home, You know how usually there'll be a couple of personal effects, but obviously the room is pretty stock standard aside from that. One of the few things that's almost always in an oldies nursing home room is their wedding photo. Yeah, right. It is usually, or depending on the generation, usually it's the classic sit stand, like Victorian portrait. They're both looking straight at the camera and, And I just think that is so classic. And it used to become like my highlight of undertaking was you'd go into the nursing room and you'd scan the walls to find the photo. And that's something that I do with almost all of my couples. If the opportunity arises, do the sit stand. And I think it is such a fun thing to do as well because it's quite an environmental portrait as well.
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_00:yeah because the context of it is always the same um but you know they could be getting married in a bar or in a field or wherever and something that i've noticed recently when actually I know we're talking so much about Japan, but when we were in Japan last, I actually booked two photo shoots for my husband and myself to, to do as the clients, um, partially, you know, for market research. Uh, and also just because I usually do it all on tripod and it's a hassle. Um, and I just wanted to see, you know, how different both photographers were very different styles. One was a Japanese photographer. One was Japan based, but she's a Aussie girl. Um, um just to kind of see the styles and the how they operated their shoots and both of them were very much they didn't want us to look at the camera ever which i thought was really interesting like it was is that a
SPEAKER_01:cultural thing i
SPEAKER_00:don't know i don't know if it's cultural or if it's just trending because you know i feel like everyone wants candid documentary style i feel like that's on a really big rise at the moment but um Yeah, so all of the prompts, because that was something that I was really listening out for, just to see what other people do differently. All of the prompts were, look at each other, look to the side, look away. There was no look at me ever, which I just found really interesting because as much as I like to do all my... dreamy, glowy Ridley Scott, you know, fun stuff. I think it's still very worthwhile having just a timeless portrait, which is why I do the nursing home shot at almost every wedding when I can just to have that straightforward. And so the picture that you guys printed for me recently, the really big Erica, That was from one of those shoots. And all the photos are gorgeous from it. She's a fantastic photographer. But the vast majority are the candids, the looking at each other, the kissing and whatnot. And for that one, I saw that spot she had us set up in and I was like, this is my nursing home shot, baby. And I was like, oh, can we just look directly at you? And she was like, if you want, you know. No one asks that, but whatever. And that is such like a gorgeous shot. classic photo like it's super environmental you can see we're in this gorgeous you know japanese maple park but just looking like just straight eye contact i feel like that really like in i feel like the viewer of a photo where the the um subjects are just giving direct eye contact has a very different energy It does. And I
SPEAKER_01:understand people not wanting, I understand the desire for less constructed pictures and all that. But there is something in the tradition of it. And I don't know whether it was back to, you know, that American Gothic painting with a farmer and his wife.
SPEAKER_00:The fork and the turkey.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. We went through a phase where everyone wanted that sort of straight
SPEAKER_00:up and down
SPEAKER_01:stiff look. And it was, I think it's very charming. It got obviously a little bit, it got a little bit looped around, but then you go back and like the only time you pulled a camera out, like it was, people had to stand really still because they were dealing with two iso you know there was even head clamps involved to make sure
SPEAKER_00:they didn't move type or something you know yeah
SPEAKER_01:and then people were often dead the only time they got a photograph is they were dead
SPEAKER_00:yeah and
SPEAKER_01:they were my grandfather got so many photographs taken he was taking them they'd tip up the casket so that he'd get the angle about right and the poor person was you know Just sitting there, and that was the only time. So there was a great history of it, and I understand the desire to participate in that. How lovely. This has been fun. I want to thank you for your fabulous time and your insight. It was really, really, really good. It was one of the most entertaining hours I've had. So
SPEAKER_00:thank you. I'm glad. You're welcome. Thank you.