Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 51 - Yana Klein
Yana is a Melbourne based portrait and family photographer, born in Siberia grew up in Moscow, educated in North America, Yana also works with Pic-Time here in Australia.
A photographer of feelings, Yana brings her unique perspective to portrait photography and the Australian Photographic industry.
"Drawn to those who seek beauty in simplicity and the magic within dreams, I explore the depth of human nature through intimate portraiture, whether capturing the quiet connections of family or the vulnerability and empowerment of boudoir.
Creating an immersive experience as my goal is not just to see you, but to help you see yourself fully as well, embracing creative exploration and allowing authentic emotions to surface and be preserved in the most meaningful way."
www.yanaklein.com
https://www.instagram.com/yanakleinphoto
https://www.instagram.com/yanakleinboudoirphoto
https://vimeo.com/233267231
G'day listeners, welcome to episode 51 of the Atkins Labcast. In this episode, I interview Jana Klein. Jana is a Melbourne-based portrait photographer. Her website byline is, she's a photographer of feelings, which sounds really ethereal and challenging, but it very much is the starting point for her work and for her time with one of her sitters. She'll go into detail explaining what this means and how she makes it work. One of the things that I do regret is we didn't talk about her boudoir work, which has become a fairly large part of her practice. But on her website, there's a great video made of one of her clients talking about the experience of having Yana photograph her. So if you're interested... pop over that and I'll put a link on the show notes so you can go straight to that and watch that video. The other thing you'll notice is that Yana's from another culture. She has a Russian accent and she was born and raised overseas. So I think she has that unique perspective of, in some ways, an outsider, but certainly differently than the way a lot of us Australians think. And I think it's really... fascinating way to look at our life and culture and photography in the industry. The last thing I'll mention is that Yana is also a Pick Time staffer. She's one of the team leaders here in Australia. So she has a great overview of the photographic industry and photographic businesses. So there's some opinions there that you might enjoy to listen to. Well, I hope you can sit back and enjoy this episode of the Atkins Lab Class.
UNKNOWN:Music
SPEAKER_00:work in technology as well as being a photographer. Can you just tell me or tell the listeners what your two roles in life are? Oh, hang on, maybe you've got three because I think you're a parent as well. So tell me all about it.
SPEAKER_03:Hi, Paul. I actually probably have more than two and probably more than three if
SPEAKER_01:we
SPEAKER_03:want to get into details. So my background is in technology. I used to be sort of in a corporate job before. And I'm generally quite analytical by nature. So I generally prefer technology and I work well with technology. And, you know, therefore... At some point in my career, I found myself spending way too much of my free time doing photography. And then eventually sort of tried to see how those two things could be merged together. And in addition to that, I'm obviously a parent, but I'm generally the person who likes to multitask. I work well multitasking. but multitasking, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:So are you watching a movie as we're doing this interview at the same time?
SPEAKER_03:Not in this particular moment, but I try to give, I'm trying to be more purposeful where I put my attention to, you know, there are obviously things where you can multitask, but things like this, I prefer to kind of focus all my energy into.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I was, I was helping a photographer in Sydney, Sydney, couple of days ago and she was editing a wedding watching a movie and answering talking to me on the phone and I thought if I could only if I could only like write and talk my life would be better I can't handle that so you're one of these people that can they can multitask like that so you have a family what else do you do
SPEAKER_03:well I mean just the family life itself is kind of you know like a big part of it
SPEAKER_00:um
SPEAKER_03:I also spent, you know, I obviously have some client work, but I'm also doing a bit, a few photography related things just for myself, like a lot of us do. You
SPEAKER_00:have personal projects as well, do you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So I'm, you know, eventually I think we all kind of go through live phases, you know, when you have young children, you kind of focus more on family photography and it kind of flows into something else further on. And I think at this point, my kids are a bit older. I'm still doing photography. I'm still shooting families and babies. But I've also throughout, you know, my photography career has always kind of focused on portraits and humans generally, mostly women, just because I obviously feel closer to them. Yeah. But just exploring human nature through, I've always kind of been fascinated with things that are not something you can touch, like emotions and feelings and experiences that people have. A lot of my sessions have been quite intense in terms of what can happen. It's like a mini therapy session. giving people a bit of space to kind of learn and explore things about themselves and just experience things for themselves, which I find in today's world sometimes it's hard to find a dedicated time for.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think that the act of being in front of your camera, like it's a very, being photographed, it's a very personal thing and not many of us are comfortable having that spotlight on us. Do you think that that point where someone's finally listening to them, whether it be with a camera or in conversation, that they're being listened to, do you think that then allows these feelings to come forth and that's the therapeutic side of it?
SPEAKER_03:It is definitely part of it. I think that's just our human nature. We want to be heard and seen and acknowledged and appreciated. quite often in today's fast-paced world, I find we're missing that point of connection. And just, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to produce some kind of reaction to what's happening, but just be able to create that space where it's safe for things to happen and unfold.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can see. I mean, it's part of researching this. I've had a good look at your website and it's when I was looking at, you know, your byline is my job is to make you fall in love and you're a photographer of feelings. And I know when we all put our websites out, we're desperately trying to look different from somebody else and et cetera. And it's a very hard thing to communicate what you're talking about. And my initial feeling was when I read that, I was like, oh yeah, that's interesting. What does she mean by that? But Why are you interested in seeing these connections and feelings? Is it something that perhaps in your life you've wanted more of, or is it something to do with your growing up?
SPEAKER_03:You kind of hit a nail on the head a little bit there. I think some of this comes from, I grew up in a family, both my parents are journalists, so I literally grew up in Australia. the environment of newspapers being created. Ironically, though, words have been not necessarily a bit of a struggle, but I kind of have always struggled articulating certain things. And I actually over time just found, probably reached out to a different medium to try and explore those things. I'm still often find it challenging to put words to describe things, especially when it comes to things that are not tangible, like things you can't touch. But I also find that it was equally fascinating for me to learn about multiple layers of human nature, whether it would be my clients with babies or clients going through various kinds of hardships, whether this is health related or, you know, personal relationship breakups. I've had all sorts of people come to sessions and while they love the idea of being heard and seen and capturing, I actually found a lot of them just really appreciated the space that was created without judgment and just observation. I have had clients come back to me a few years after asking to paint, asking if they would be able to do a painting of their favorite image from their gallery. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:wow. So
SPEAKER_03:to me, it speaks more that not only you had an experience for the two hours that we met, This actually lives on. So there is probably a lot more that I can even explain that they've picked up from working with me. But it kind of goes both ways for me as well. And I truly believe in that sort of energy exchange between it's a collaboration with my client. It's never really like I don't just come there, press the button and leave. There's a lot more that goes into it.
SPEAKER_00:So you've mentioned a couple of times a safe space where you're making the portrait and you're working with your client. I know that's a term in psychology where people feel like without judgment or unthreatened and this kind of a thing. Physically, where are you photographing them and what are you doing to create that safe space?
SPEAKER_03:It depends. It's not actually attached to a particular physical space. I found over time, I used to shoot stuff in the studios and I found over time that people find it way more comforting to be in their more familiar space. And it doesn't necessarily have to be their own home. It could be like their favorite location outside. I've actually had clients that appear to be more liberated being in nature versus being inside the buildings. I have also found the freedom allowing the client to actually decide where they see themselves. And making that choice is also quite helpful to a lot of people. So it's more about the interaction we have versus the physical space, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:No, I understand that. I understand that. Does that mean you have to do a lot of travelling for these sessions, that you spend a lot of time going to people's places? Is that a difficult part of costing what you're doing, like including that in the budget of what...?
SPEAKER_03:It depends. I really live quite central, if that makes sense. So a lot of my sessions, I do travel to my clients, but I don't do a lot of like across the country travel just yet. I have traveled to Adelaide a few months ago.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Which was fantastic. The whole thing from– we're still waiting for the final product to be delivered because the client's main event hasn't happened yet. But so far it's been a fantastic experience for both of us.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sorry we missed one another at that stage. I was interstate and you were here. It would have been nice to actually say hi again.
SPEAKER_03:I know. Well, I know we're seeing each other soon.
SPEAKER_00:We are, we are, we are. Now, you mentioned your parents were both journalists, and I'm sure the listeners have detected an accent. Where are you from, and what were your parents doing, or what are they doing as journalists? Are they still in the profession? I
SPEAKER_03:was born in Russia. Actually, it was still Soviet Union. I... currently live in Australia and I've moved to Australia from Canada so I have quite a bit of history and somewhere in between I actually went to school in the States as well so the baseline of my accent is obviously Russian but I feel like that's been a bit of a mix as well as I used to work with English people a lot quite a bit in my 20s so in terms of my upbringing My parents were journalists when I was growing up. My dad is actually still in the profession. He is kind of from the old school journalist, not the way how it's done now. My mom kind of ventured into a different profession these days, which ironically is psychology.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Have you ever been tempted? I mean, obviously you're interested in people's feelings and talking about them. Have you been tempted to psychology yourself?
SPEAKER_03:More on sort of a practical, you know, personal interest rather than professionally. I find, and I'm not in no way want to sort of judge the profession or the way how things work, but I I feel like some of it is quite limited. It's almost like we're looking at the sort of mental part of it, but we're hardly ever really considering the body reaction. So I do definitely have interest in psychology and human nature. However, I'm still thinking that we're missing a big part of how our bodies could react to any kind of unnecessary stimulation, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I understand that. I understand that.
SPEAKER_03:I think photography actually allows me to see that in a more sort of tangible way.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. No, I understand that. I understand. So when did you leave Russia and you said you were, were you schooled in Russia or was that Canada or America? I
SPEAKER_03:went to school in Russia up until I was 14. At 14, I went to live in the west coast of the United States for a year. I attended school there, high school, and a year later I went back. I spent another three, four years back in Russia. I've gained some experience working with English companies. And then in my early 20s, I moved to Canada.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_03:I've lived there about 10 years and then I moved here and it's been almost 12 years that I've been here.
SPEAKER_00:You said you're currently living in Melbourne. Does that mean that you would think about moving back to Canada or is Australia your home now?
SPEAKER_03:I actually have been asked this question quite a bit, especially because when I was moving from Canada, I had a young child and a lot of people couldn't really comprehend Canada. why would anyone would be living like a very stable job and sort of a set life to go somewhere where you don't have any family, friends or sort of any plans or prospects. However, I don't think I've ever felt as at home as I actually feel here in a really strange way because I've never consciously planned to move to Australia. It was kind of really on the whim of
SPEAKER_00:When you've moved around a lot, it suggests that you have the ability to form bonds without needing the past. I'm kind of in my, this is not my grandfather's house, but metaphorically, I'm still within the realm of my family. And I struggle to imagine what life would be like for you or being able to do what you've done and attach myself in other places. It's a remarkable skill. So you clearly– and I think Australia is a– I mean, of course I do. It's a lovely place. It's a gentle place. But, you know, you've made a good network of people here in Australia. You've got a good connection of friends. You've been involved with communities that I'm sure has helped anchor you here. Is that what you found? I
SPEAKER_03:think I went through a very interesting period of my life in my early 30s around the time when I moved here. And I think that happens to a lot of women generally once they have a baby. I think like your third eye opens and you just see all these possibilities and options. And quite honestly, at the period of time when I was moving, it happened so fast and it was never really planned. Australia was never on my radar. However, looking back at this now, it kind of all makes sense. I was going through sort of a... I think the transitional period probably in my life, I kind of hit a health crisis and that really made me re-evaluate how, what I'm doing, what I want to be doing and sort of the things that I want to be teaching my children, the life I want to be living. And it just happened that Australia was a perfect fit in a way. There were some challenges, but I mean, challenges build character.
SPEAKER_00:Apparently when they're not destroying character, like they do both, don't they?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it can go both ways. I think a lot really depends on sort of, you know, your internal like anchor, if that makes sense. I can't really, you know, speak for everyone, but I think that does give me a bit of, you know, benefit in many scenarios. I'm quite used to interacting with people of different cultures and different sort of backgrounds. I've been like, you're right, absolutely right. I've built a great network of friends. And for me specifically, because I was moving from a very corporate environment, to be able to move into sort of self-employment and not just any self-employment, but, you know, in the creative industry, which we all kind of know the certain aspects of it can be challenging and for a lot of creatives and business owners. So for me, I had to, the easiest way, actually, I was thinking if I'm already moving across the world and I'm moving my family, it only makes sense for me to explore the things that I've always wanted to explore it, but just didn't have the opportunity or the time on, you know, Didn't have the time to put my hat to it. So that was it.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Melbourne's a great place because it is quite multicultural. And out of all the cities in Australia, I think Melbourne probably has more of a mix-up of, you know, European connections. I mean, maybe if you went up Darwin and Cairns and North Queensland, you'd see more people, South Pacific and that sort of stuff. But Melbourne is a real hot seat of culture. of people getting together and mixing. And has that been a, an important thing for why you chose to be in Melbourne? Was that a part of it?
SPEAKER_03:It was part of it. I think it's, it's a little bit more complex than that. I'm sure this is definitely plays a role, but I grew up like my formative, you know, teen, young adult years. I grew up in Moscow. That's about 15 million people. And, Further down the road, I moved to Toronto, which is also quite multicultural and also about five, six million people, I think. So in terms of population scale, I'm kind of going down, I'm downgrading. But there are certain aspects in Melbourne, for me, some of it was a bit of a health related. I had a lot of breathing issues when I was living in Toronto. So when I came to travel, to Australia before I actually permanently moved here. We kind of went around Sydney, Melbourne, went up to Gold Coast. The only place we didn't explore was the West Coast of Australia. And Melbourne just kind of ticked a lot of my boxes, primarily health-wise, but, you know, coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Coffee was.
SPEAKER_03:But also, you know, obviously the variety of, you know, creative things you can do in Melbourne. This is such a hub for things. I know you do have amazing things happening in South Australia too, but I think it was just like a no-brainer for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I do think we have a lot going on here, but I think in many ways we look at Melbourne and I think a lot of Australians, if you really, if they were honest, would say that Melbourne represents You know, if you wanted to send an overseas person to Australia and say, what city will best describe Australia? And I think Melbourne is just something about Melbourne that it is Sydney's, Sydney's somewhere else. I mean, I love Sydney, but Sydney's San Francisco. It's something else. It's iconic and all that, but it's something else. But Melbourne is the definition of it. And Adelaide is, we're trying really hard to be interesting. And in trying hard, it is interesting, but we just don't have the population. And, you know, we have this sort of strange foundation that is actually a housing development. The whole place was basically, you know, designed for to sell land and house and land prop packages to people back in the day, whereas Melbourne was a proper organic, wild place. And, yeah, I do think it's magic and culturally is really the hub of it all. So you've landed in a great spot. It really has been wonderful.
SPEAKER_03:I've been really enjoying it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Have you travelled– do your children know– Their grandparents, have you taken them back? Or a child? Have you got one or two children? Yeah, I've
SPEAKER_03:got two. I've got two kids. I have taken them. I've actually even taken them to Russia. That was quite a few years ago. Unfortunately, we were planning to go around or just around COVID times and then COVID hit. And I think we're still kind of recovering from that in a way. There are certain things happening now that traveling is a bit of a... can be a bit of a challenge. But, yeah, my kids do know that they're grandparents. They have come to visit us as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I suppose being journalists, you don't picture that as being a traditional thing grandparent role you know you don't expect them to be you know Nan sitting there cooking knitting by the fire and granddad out there whittling in his shed you know these these are journalists reading the world and even though your mum's role has changed they're still very engaged with what's going on around them and that's you know they don't that's not a traditional grandparent role you can't sort of just dump your kids on people like that can you?
SPEAKER_03:No and I think I kind of grew in an environment where first of all I think my parents are particularly my dad, are fairly young. So this is just, that's one thing as well. We don't have a massive, huge age gap there. But in addition to this, that's how I grew up as well. I did have my grandparents around. However, they were working. So I was one of those children that grew up, you know, basic daycare and sometimes friends or friends or family friends looking after me. And when I was raising, you know, I got my family. I think grandparents are definitely important, but I think as a parent, I'm also trying to help my kids learn some life skills. And I mean, sorry.
SPEAKER_00:You think that, you know, journalists would know life skills is it is or is it something about the era you said your dad is not a um you know he's an old school journalist are you suggesting that perhaps your father is you know you wanted something different for your children for them to have a different understanding of the world rather than what your grandparents might put on them
SPEAKER_03:um not necessarily i do recognize the different and difference in perspective because as much as know obviously this is my children's background i also recognize their mentality is completely different um and you know as much as you try to bridge the gap there's certain things and i can attest to this having lived in various countries and at various ages that there's certain things that you can really truly understand only if you've experienced them so my children can speak the language they can understand what is being said but it's really hard to kind of hit some of the points because they both of them were born and grew up in Canada or Australia
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah yeah there's different perspectives that you're just sitting in a different place looking at the world in a different way and they are very hard to bridge and I'd imagine could be quite confusing to children to try and explain that
SPEAKER_03:It could be. And my oldest child is kind of at the age where he's starting to get interested in history. And this is another interesting thing because there are particular parts of history that were being taught. And now that I've lived overseas for so long, you know, I can see a slightly different perspective being presented to, you know, even when I was in school in America, both my parents came to actually do a presentation for in my class.
SPEAKER_01:It
SPEAKER_03:was really refreshing to see that difference in perspective because quite often we grow up in our environment and we just take this information and the facts that we have in front of us for granted. We can't really extend ourselves to see it from a different point of view or see a different perspective. And in that sense, it can be definitely can be, you know, like a good education point. But also expanding your sort of worldview and seeing, you know, it's like any kind of conflict we have, right? There is one side, we can't just look at it from one perspective. So I think, as a parent, I think, you know, that would be my ultimate goal is for my children to be able to form those opinions, not just on one side and luckily we have that opportunity having family all over the world and the backgrounds we have too.
SPEAKER_00:You just mentioned you know difficulty with travel and COVID that must have been hard because Melbourne was you know the city that kind of took the hit for all of Australia you know you guys were locked down so much and it would have been very hard for a photographer who wants to exchange and see people's safe spaces you know make spaces for people and photograph them in that way and to get there. That must have been really hard for you. It would have been a tough couple of years. It
SPEAKER_03:was challenging. I'm not going to lie. It was even more challenging when I was sending, you know, in contrast, my family, my dad in Russia, for example, they weren't locked up at all. And when I was sending him pictures from Melbourne with a dog grooming and a hair salon next to each other, the dog grooming opened and the hair salon closed with zero cases in Melbourne. My dad couldn't comprehend this. He actually thought it was a title and it would have been like 1,000 cases. But it was mostly challenging from just being out of your routines and things like that. And obviously it took us, what, about three years to catch up on all of the work that was just piling up and being delayed due to different mandates and people getting sick and things like that.
SPEAKER_00:Your ability to earn a living at that stage would have changed or that stage had you taken, we haven't mentioned it yet, but people might know you by your pick time identity. that you're one of the support people and people who sort of help manage Australia's community and operations actually. So was that something that you were doing during that period as well?
SPEAKER_03:I actually got to, started working with Big Time before pandemic hit. And by the time pandemic hit, we were kind of in the swing of things. And that's probably one thing that kept a lot of us sane, just because we had things to do. on a consistent basis, regardless of what was happening in the outside world. And that really sort of kept us grounded at the same time, because we just had to go and help other people. Obviously, interacting with people from around the world, you can see, again, you can see all the different perspectives. I think that's just my natural curiosity to kind of try and look at it in a
SPEAKER_00:sort of more global way. It's very interesting, isn't it? And I mean, I know from our perspective as a supplier for PickTime is probably or a partner or whatever you want to call it with PickTime. If it wasn't for PickTime and the other gallery services, if it wasn't for their efforts at maintaining this like way to sell work without being face-to-face, you know, this web gallery idea, I'm not sure where we'd be in business. I don't know whether a lot of the photographers in Australia could have survived without these online stores that seem to be so productive and effective. It was a big, big time for this sort of service. I think it, it could have, you know, birthed it into the world as a, as a real thing. Did you, do you feel the same way?
SPEAKER_03:Um, I think to be fair, we've already there. Um, like peak time was already there. However, I think that just gave us sort of a more focused approach in trying to work on things that doesn't just include features, but actually communication with people and educating about all the different things you can do and how the software can help you in these challenging times. So I think that just gave us a more sort of focused view on where we could direct our energy in sort of challenging times. And again, because we were helping people from around the world, we actually had It wasn't one way to kind of approach it because everyone was in different stages. Some people could still go and shoot. Some people were kind of verging into doing the porch sessions.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I think shortly after that, the whole slideshow thing came out because people just needed ways to put things forward and have different ways or better ways to create the visual representation of their work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's interesting. But I think, I mean, I don't know if you saw a big uptake or a big use of pick time change. I sort of felt from our perspective that we saw an uplift in people selling physical products that we were shipping, you know, from the sales. So I felt it from our aspect. But, you know, with any of these things, it takes a user and a supplier. So, and it seems there was an uptake in photographer's looking at it and it was uptaking people happy to buy online and move their spending experience to, you know, an online experience rather than the model that I think a lot of photographers were very strongly arguing that, oh, you know, web gallery sales is just a part of it. You really, you have to have in-person sales. If you're not an in-person salesperson, you're not a professional photographer. And now I think it's, I don't think that's the case anymore. I think it changed with the pandemic. That's what my opinion is.
SPEAKER_03:You see, I have never been in person, like in person sales type of person, even long before I even discovered big time, like on a personal level. I've always been, I don't know, maybe that kind of gives out my age a bit as well. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:You're a millennial.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it never really just, I think personality wise and personal sales never really appealed to me. I always, you know, I've actually consciously separated sort of the financial part and creative part in my business because I am able to rely on technology that I use. You know, it could be my CRM. So they, you know, where my invoicing and all the financial side is completely separate from the creative part of the process. And I personally found that also helped. helps my clients to kind of not get things tied in a knot, dealing with both of these things kind of separately. But you're absolutely right. I think pandemic kind of just highlighted that maybe the things we are very quick to reject on initial instinct could be of help to us or to those of us that are a bit more resistant. And Another aspect that I think people really re-evaluated the importance of things that they were putting off, you know, like you were planning to meet your family, like a lot of the three hour, three year jobs that I was catching up on were families getting together after not seeing each other for two years. You know, planning those, especially older children with you know, the ones that have left home already or extended families, you know, massive amount of this kind of work that just piled up around those times.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean. I think perhaps this year is the first year that that is calming down. And for us, we're seeing it as a little bit of a drop in sales and turnover, because I think we've had that catch up period. I think it, It was still very hot last year or maybe early last year, and it's just sort of slowed down now, back to what it perhaps was before lockdowns and all of that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, probably. I think the economy generally doesn't help at all. So if we're kind of back to pre-COVID levels, with today's economy, I think we're still doing pretty good. Not to say that we should probably, you know, kind of keep our ducks in a row in a way, but... Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:no, no. I think, I think the value of photography was highlighted during that period as well. You know, people, I think people see that you can have things on your wall that aren't stock standard Ikea posters, you know, they are personal things. And I think photographers worked out models that allowed people to buy things at all different levels. Did you ever feel the pressure or the judgment from the in-person sales world where people I mean, I think there was a lot of people talking about, you know, it's the only way to get the big margins is to be in front of people, you know, with a sales room projecting things on the wall. You didn't feel any of that at all? You were a bit late to the industry for that? Is that the case?
SPEAKER_03:I don't think I experienced this, but I'm generally, I mean, personality-wise, I just don't think I would have put myself in that situation in the first place. because in-person sales has not really been my thing ever, regardless of COVID times or anything else. It's just never appealed to me. So a lot of my network is kind of in the same boat as myself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've seen that. I've seen that.
SPEAKER_03:So I haven't really experienced. If anything, I think... what a lot of people got the time to sort of realize is that perhaps we could keep a bit of an open mind to new options and opportunities that we could explore. It doesn't hurt. You don't have to change the way your model works if it works for you. However, with today's advancement in technology and just the way how people operate, majority of clients use mobile devices these days you know everyone's kind of time poor you know we've got to kind of be in in with the times if that makes sense
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah you have to fit with what where people are at you've got to meet them there no i don't i think there's so many people where in-person sales it's too much of an uncomfortable leap for them you know, to do that, just like your way you've described how you felt about it yourself. And I think it kept a lot of people out of the industry. So I think in some ways, the idea that you could make an income from and still sell product and not just your session time fees, you could improve your sales and make more of an income. It sort of allowed more people to do that in the industry. Do you think as a single person by themselves making a living as a portrait artist, or wedding portrait, portrait, family, whatever photographer, is that, do you think that's a possibility now? Or do you think it's very hard to earn enough to make it work and pay rent and all that? Do you think that there's a need for people to have second jobs? Or how have you seen it? Because I know you see a lot of people around Australia, both in your network. I
SPEAKER_03:think it depends on quite a few factors. I have fabulous examples in my network that... just do photography and they are super successful. And I see other cases where people prefer to have a second job. I think some of it depends on the personality, the way, like just personal strength and weaknesses as well. There are people who are a bit more business minded versus, you know, being sort of more into creative stuff. How do you merge wearing so many hats in your business, you know, Many people struggle with that. There are so many different sort of things to consider when making a decision. How much support do you have from your family? How many children do you have to take care of? What type of stuff you should? How do you should... artwork that you sell, like individual prints, that's one sort of avenue. And maybe you do trade shows or exhibitions and things like that. Or do you shoot retail stuff, you know, clients in their family homes? The delivery and the offerings and the services you can provide can vary sort of vastly. I don't know if there is one way that works for everyone, but With that being said, I think it just allowed us to dedicate more time, maybe, how to figure out what things work for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, because it is a personal thing. So those that you know that are doing really well or very successful, is that because you feel that they are more business-minded or is it that they have a very unique background? thing they're selling that makes them in demand or is it that they've been in business for a long time is there is there any you know unifying thread you feel that's going through those what you might call more successful people I don't know that's a bad word really defining successful you know because success is whatever you want to do to whatever makes you happy but I'm just talking about people that are doing more and supporting themselves and making more money out of their photography that's really what I meant to say is there any threads
SPEAKER_03:I think consistency is a big one and that sort of translates into consistency in the work you produce and consistency in that translates, the consistency in the work you produce translates into consistency with your results. That's one thing that I can see for sure. But also I think like some sort of internal drive, you know, you can, because you've got the skill, you've got the technical skill now, you can probably shoot a great picture halfway with your eyes closed however you know the energy and that's purely my personal belief the energy and the intention that you put into it is what can affect your results so are you naturally driven do you naturally love what you do or did you just pick up the camera because you think it's easier to press buttons and you know outsource your editing or whatever so Lots of little things to consider, in my opinion. And also, you know, there are cases where people are like, I'm going to pursue this and put 300% in because I don't want to look for another job. There are cases like that too.
SPEAKER_00:Of course, of course. And it is scary, like especially if you've– and a lot of photographers have been on the same journey you described. You've got young children, you– you know you photograph them in the and then you photograph your friends because you're good at what you do you've shown that and so your network naturally and so you build this little business and then you get to the point where your children are aging out of it and you go like you're aging out because all your friends have had their children and and then you go what do i do next and that's where you need to make that decision you know do i change and and grow this and become a wedding photographer or market differently? Or do I get another job? Some people see that getting another job as a failure thing, like my business didn't work. And that's really hard, isn't it? It
SPEAKER_03:is hard. However, I actually heard another photographer friend of mine say this in such a brilliant way. in relation to the second job. She particularly has a full-time job that she really enjoys, and I think I can kind of relate to this, is where your job really fits your personality, whatever it is that you're doing. My job is related to photography, but hers isn't and the way how she put it she said imagine that this is your corporate sponsor for all the art and creative things that you want to do and when you put it that way it really shifts your perspective and suddenly you're seeing the world full of opportunities and all the things that you can put your energy to because you don't have to let's say if marketing isn't your strong point and you're struggling to put yourself out there and you know put a word out and get enough bookings to kind of keep your business afloat, get a corporate sponsor so you can continue doing things you love, you know, and eventually maybe find your groove on how you can balance these two things out. You know, it doesn't always have to be 50-50 or 70-30 or whatever it is, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful perspective to look at, you know, the problem. If you're feeling a bit down on yourself, I'm not suggesting that you were, it's just the use of a phrase, but you could take this idea that my business isn't supporting me as a really hard thing. It's just a sad, difficult thing. But a perspective like that, my corporate job is my sponsor, so I can do what I want to do, is beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. But I actually find, you know, that's kind of my personal philosophy, but I think that applies to even how you could relate to business if you like you just said, if you think that the business is not... You look at it as a challenge because there are certain aspects of it that maybe are not easy for you to do or you're not able to outsource. It could be various things. I personally found a challenge outsourcing my copywriting. I've tried several times and it took me quite a few years, but I ended up basically rewriting it all myself because no one could kind of speak and express things the way I wanted them to be said and perceived and the same thing with the with the job the you know you can look at it as a challenge however you can also it's like half glass half full half empty I'm always kind of more of a last half full type of person so I would be like oh well there's a dip in bookings how can I use that time to actually either put spend more time doing creative things that I've been putting off or you know upskill myself or go network with people or you know go scout locations or I don't know could be multitude of things to sort of work on my business website things that kind of are not the highest priority. So I think perspective here really matters. And when we're dealing with creative industry, I would probably put it in the top few things on my priority list.
SPEAKER_01:Just because
SPEAKER_03:we're so much more prone to sort of ups and downs, if that
SPEAKER_00:makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, it's hard to say to someone, You know, it's just your perspective. Like depression is depression. And you're one of the lucky people who can see, you know, who can make that use of that time and don't feel that all you need to do is lie down in your bed a bit longer sort of thing. And, you know, you've got a natural energy. But it is really hard for some people to see that.
SPEAKER_03:I understand. And I want to say that I have got this, but it doesn't mean that– I couldn't be depressed. It took my personal experiences and actually quite a few really personally challenging ones to be like this. So it's not something that I was born with, that I'm just this happy, positive person. I actually put the work into trying to change my perspective or see and maybe it's kind of survival thing as well as you know, you have got no other options, but try and if you can't change your circumstances, you've got to change your perspective. Yeah. So I absolutely sympathize with, you know, and I see this a lot in creative industry, the mental load sometimes is a lot. However, I do believe in the strength of human nature and that we can overcome, you may need some support, you may need some help, and obviously try and reach out to people around you. Don't even have to be oversharing things, just to be present around people who would be supportive of whatever it is you're going through. But I do believe we have that strength within us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I do agree with you. I do agree with you. That's fantastic. Now, we're getting close to... our time together closing. But I did want to ask you, we talked a little bit about personal projects and things, and I'm interested in what you're doing and what you're doing next and what's exciting for you. Where are you hoping to go with your personal creative art?
SPEAKER_03:I have found myself in a bit of a sort of go, go, go mode. And for the past... actually probably since beginning of 2024, I've been really trying to consciously slow down and be more present. And it doesn't just involve the creative things, but even just being more present within my body, if that makes sense. There's just a lot of hectic energy and it's been like few years after COVID, like we said, it was a lot of playing catch up and just putting out the fires in a way. So I just felt like this year was my way to, and sometimes it could involve just sitting still and let the moment unfold, not having a solution for everything that comes your way. You have this kind of opening in your schedule, doesn't mean you have to fill it in with all the things you've been putting off. Sometimes I find a lot of value in just sitting down in the silence and trying to see what comes in. So it's been a lot of sort of self-reflection and that comes with, you know, in relation to creative projects as well. I don't have actually anything particular in mind, funny enough. This is one of those times when I'm just going with the flow. But I am shooting more film this year. I saw that. I'm shooting more clients on film. I'm actually getting some of my return clients choose film over digital the next time they return. So I'm not actively pushing it, but I do offer this as an option. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, film is something you're very present when using film. There's, you know, you've got to get a lot of little things right and then you can't review what you've done. It's just you and the person or the subject, isn't it? It's a very unique experience.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and for me, it was really refreshing to see. I've done quite a few sessions where I shot hybrid, like as in both digital and film. They're not necessarily edited the same way. Obviously, you can't edit film, but... I'd never tried too much my digital work to sort of film look. And it was really refreshing for me to see that a lot of clients actually see the value of film. They see how raw things are because I hardly ever edit my client work anyway in terms of like changing bodies and things like that. However, you know, with all of this in mind, for them to still choose film to do film prints, like an eight by 12 or something was really like the best thing ever.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think that's exciting. I mean, I, I, I think we, we think very similarly. There's something that film produces without much thought and effort into, I mean, of course you've got all the years of understanding light and how to pose your, subject and all that sort of stuff you've got all of that which you know it's very hard to communicate that but there's something that film delivers on its own and i don't know i can't really ever really wrap my words around to explain what it is but i've spent time editing digitals and i've shot hybrid parallel you know film and digital and i'm and without without looking at the film results because they always take a week to get back from you know the lab um I've been working on the digitals in the meantime. And the film comes back and you go, that's perfect. And I'm trying to make the digitals look like that. There's something magic about it, isn't there?
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And actually one of my instructors like ages ago, I took this fantastic documentary course back in Canada. And he said to us, if you think about it, each photograph you take is history, right? it will never be repeated again. And I think digital allows us to kind of play with that and play with the timeline because there's so many things you can change. And I feel like the more digital tools we have to adjust the reality of what you've captured makes a lot of us go back and say, no, no, no, this is not even real. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:I completely agree with you. Those controls and that infinite adjustment. Because I think photography plays with our visual memory because we record, a lot of us record things as we see them. You know, we remember scenes and that and people by the image of them. And you kind of like your, what's a better word than this, but maybe gaslighting yourself when you're editing these things so much. You know, you're playing with your memory.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. And I think our mind is like, we actually don't know much about our mind, like the way it works. So I think there's so many issues with this. Like, first of all, we have control issue because we go back and we want to change everything about the picture that you shot. You know, when I, when we were trying and probably like back in the older days and I'm talking like 15, 20 years ago, at least we were always told, you know, you obviously try to get things right in camera. So now all of a sudden we can come and we add like this remote Island on the beach and, you know, dinosaurs and things like that. are you running away from reality? Are you trying to avoid things? Are you not present in what you've taken? Did you not put enough effort into sort of what you're, did you not like what you were seeing? There's so many questions that I have about this and I'm not in any way trying to be like judgmental because we all kind of use the tools and I absolutely see benefit in them at times. But With all this being said, there is nothing that can beat the authentic real sort of scene.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:yeah,
SPEAKER_03:yeah. I totally get it. The documentary course was like my favourite ever.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's interesting. And I suppose it does feed into your parents being journalists and trying to see the world and communicate the world. I'm sure that that is in your DNA in a way from all of that.
SPEAKER_03:kind of more like of an observer. And I think that one of the values from my sessions that my clients have said was specifically that. Actually, I had a very interesting experience one time when it was a friend of mine that I was photographing. So I know her really well. I know her family really well. And we shot the session, but we didn't tell anyone. And when I posted it online, I didn't tag her. So the picture is out there on social media and then like a week or two goes by. And suddenly I think that was someone from her family said, oh my God, is that you? We didn't actually realize that was you. And for me, that was so good to see that we're actually able, you know, you think you know the person, you know them fairly well. And I'm talking, you know, upward eight years or something. And yeah. you're still able to see and show the side of them that even their closest family and friends took about two weeks to figure out.
SPEAKER_00:That's brilliant. I mean, well, you're doing a job then, like you are, you're understanding these people and, yeah, it's very exciting. Well, look, thank you so much. This has been, An absolutely lovely hour or so talking about these things. I'm sorry about all the technical issues beforehand. I'm glad that went away.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's lovely. And we'll look forward to seeing your work. I would encourage people. I'm going to put links in the podcast notes to your website and your Instagram. Is there anywhere else you'd like people to be able to see your work?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the website and Instagram are great. the main things. I actually need to be a bit more present in terms of posting, putting things online, because a lot of work you do for yourself tends to be for yourself. It's hidden, kind of.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it should be. I
SPEAKER_03:mean, I'm not necessarily hiding or anything. I think I just like being slightly introverted. I go through sort of flows of it. I
SPEAKER_00:know what you mean. Yeah, yeah. You go through flows of pushing yourself saying, I shouldn't be so, you know, insert the problem. I shouldn't be so. Then you go and do everything to try and be the other thing. And then you stop after a while because it's not naturally you to be posting all the time. It's, you know.
SPEAKER_03:No. And I think, you know, again, multitasking is great. But there are times when I realize something really needs my attention. attention more than just 10% of it. So I think that's probably where the inconsistencies with posting and having things online comes from. It's not necessarily meaning that I'm neglecting my work, but maybe my power just went into actually producing the work or admiring it afterwards.
SPEAKER_00:It's just not ready for everyone else just
SPEAKER_03:yet. It may be. There is not real, you know, I think that's probably where I think I should be asking questions.
SPEAKER_00:Well, having an editor, having someone you
SPEAKER_03:trust. I should be speaking to Bec Griffith about the whole, you know, marketing part of it.
SPEAKER_00:She's so good with that stuff and fearless, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, she's brilliant.
SPEAKER_00:Fearless. Well, look, thank you again. Thank you again for your time and I look forward to talking to you soon.
UNKNOWN:Thank you very much. Okay, that's it.