Atkins Labcast

Atkins Labcast Episode 56 - David Haddy

• Paul and Kate Atkins

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Paul interviews David Haddy of Adelaide Portrait Studios. David has been running a studio for over 40 years focussing on repeat business. David has survived and thrived by combining excellent customer service with great photography and timeless products.

https://www.adelaideportraitstudios.com.au

Paul Atkins:

G'day listeners, welcome to another episode of the Atkins Labcast. In my quest to look into every aspect of the professional photographic industry, how could I pass up the chance to speak with David Haddy, a photographer who's run a successful portrait studio for over 30 years. often photographing generations from the same family. The challenge of the studio model is to pay your rent, and sometimes this can lead to pointy sales techniques. With our guest David, you'll hear another side to this story. It's all about connections and relationships, and it's a business model that continues to work. I hope you enjoy this time with David. So David, you've been a portrait photographer. I would think, I don't remember when you weren't a portrait photographer.

David Haddy:

No, I don't remember either. Well, I do.

Paul Atkins:

No, there was a time, and there was a distinct time when you actually purchased an existing studio, wasn't

David Haddy:

it? Yes, that was halfway through. The Family Tree Photographers, which was one of the biggest studios in the state, probably almost in the country, way back when. Started by John Ploog. John Ploog and Alex Herrick. Yep. And Diane Eric. So Alex and Diane ran it together. That's right. Yep. Did you work with John? I didn't work with– no, I actually went for an interview once when I was a student and I didn't get a job. So I bought him later.

Paul Atkins:

Because he was a– like John Ploeg really set a standard in early, you know, photographic wedding

David Haddy:

portraits. And he brought a lot of the marketing side of things to the wedding portrait side of things. He was extremely– I believe so. Because you'd think he's American the way

Paul Atkins:

– the sort of stuff he was talking about, wouldn't

David Haddy:

you? Yeah, it's more the Americanisms that came across really in those days. But particularly it was Alex who I knew more than John. Yeah. And he's a lovely guy. He's amazing, isn't he? And everything he used to do for people as well. He used to be one of those people that when you go out to photographic– not exhibitions, but photographic workshops and things, you know, just be there quietly, just absorbing and just being friendly and that sort of thing, which is really nice. So yeah, the family tree I purchased along the way. So I had already got a studio at that stage.

Paul Atkins:

So where was that studio? Where were you operating before family tree?

David Haddy:

That was in Doothy

Paul Atkins:

Street in Malvern. Yes. So in the eastern, southeastern suburb of Adelaide. Yeah. Close to the city. So a

David Haddy:

hundred minutes away from the city. Everywhere I've been has really been about, minutes or 10 minutes away from the city of Adelaide so it's been quite close in but I grew

Paul Atkins:

up higher income bracket sort of a thing

David Haddy:

I think so yes certainly now that's oh everything's blowing up everything's going up but in that area particularly because there's lots of lovely big old homes still in some of those areas that's been zoned so it's You have to keep some of the old ones as well as the new ones, so that's always nice. Yeah, yeah. So where I really started, I guess, even way back in high school, I started finding the darkroom with a friend of mine and then we did the school magazine and that sort of, back in those days, it was take photographs, cut them out, stick them down somewhere, take a photograph of it and make that into the picture, very rudimentary compared to what all the kids would be doing now.

Paul Atkins:

That was a photojournalism style though, you know, storytelling for magazines, isn't it?

David Haddy:

Yeah, yeah. Well, school magazine work back in those days when you're a student too it's everything's relative to where you're at in your life so you're with your peers or you're photographing it's sort of with my way of being in with a community where I wasn't really into sports or any of those other areas that tend to go on at school. So that was my little bit. Me too, right out behind the camera. Yeah, exactly right. It's still the same. I can go into a room and organise a couple of hundred people with a camera in my hands, but if I go into a room for networking and it's just me, I've learnt, but it's taken a lot of effort to just go up and talk to people because it's not your thing. The security blanket of a camera in your hands can do something quite...

Paul Atkins:

So what pivoted from, like you got the feel that I can make pictures and I can process them and I had that experience. So what was the next step for you to becoming? Well,

David Haddy:

I started photographing some theatre shows and found that people would like to purchase some. So I got a taste for that side of things. There wasn't very much, but it was what turned out to be a career opportunity. that I continued with. Theatre is another avenue which I've more recently been able to come back to. A couple of years ago, I was able to photograph some semi-pro, amateur, but they felt like pro shows of Fandom of the Opera and Les Mis when they came to Adelaide. Oh, cool. And it suddenly brought back those memories of When I very first started photographing for five, 10 years, some amateur shows and things in a certain company where we'd photograph all the headshots and the PR shots, but also the stage shots. And back in those days, we'd have film. You'd remember 3200 ISO has got grain the size of things we can't mention on radio. Sand. Sand. Big grains of sand. That's it, yeah. But exposing for those peak moments where people are in very low light, but you have to get the, if they're dancing, get those peak moments. Learn how to do that with a long lens in auditoriums. and creaky floorboards and everything's moving, that sort of thing. So that was great education. And then I studied photography out at Elizabeth Tafe way back when, which was more of a commercial, technical sort of course back then. So you learn everything from light, optics, chemistry, darkroom, as well as everything else, not just the creative side, which suits me, as it turned out. And I was there also with Hilary, Hilary Hand, you know. Oh, yeah. She and I were sort of going through the same course at the same time. And, yeah, about then I started photographing weddings as well as photographing families because as soon as you've got a camera in your hands, oh, do you photograph weddings? It's still the same now as it used to be then.

Paul Atkins:

Yeah. I

David Haddy:

mean, like they're a

Paul Atkins:

tough

David Haddy:

thing to do.

Paul Atkins:

Did you start with other photographers working with them or were you flying solo?

David Haddy:

Unlike some friends, I just took it up as I went and kept on going. So in some ways, looking back, it would have been nice to actually probably have the advantage of working with someone as a mentor along the way saying this is how you should do it and charge and all that stuff. But it just evolved. So it just continually rumbled along. The first major wedding I did, I think I was still at college, and so I borrowed one of the college house of lads, and it was someone connected with the college principal's daughter, I think, something like that. Oh, right. So I asked if I'd like to do that, having seen some work. And after that, I was photographing weddings through the 80s and 90s, probably first 20 years of my career, probably a lot of weddings as well as families. I added them up once and an average of about 20 to 25 a year, which was okay for a single person. Over 20 years, it's nearly 500 weddings. Wow.

Paul Atkins:

That's wild. Do you find that that fed into the portrait photography or is it a very distinctive world? Like, no, I'm a wedding guy.

David Haddy:

No, I very much was always both, but I loved photographing kids and families. possibly because, you know, whoever wants to grow up, so you can just play with them on the ground and take photographs and everything else. When I started doing that work, a lot of it I preferred black and white because everyone else was colour. Well, that was, yeah, I mean, colour was… And everyone was in studios, so I went to people's homes. So I tried to do the opposite of what was going on, which gives you a little niche market, which you can then get known for, which is something I've tried to always look through. As time goes on, everything changes and goes around in circles and comes back again. And I think towards the end of the 80s, I noticed a Vogue, I think it was a Vogue fashion magazine cover suddenly was all black and white at a time when everything was colour. And I saw… So you felt like that… Well, no, I felt like, okay, black and white's back. I would make sure that I'm pushing black and white. That's nice. That's obviously the new trend. Yeah, yeah. The back, you know, the old trend that's back again. Yeah, yeah. Because you guys, the lab started about early 1970s. That's sort of when colour really started.

Paul Atkins:

Yeah, that's when the colour

David Haddy:

really started picking up. Yeah,

Paul Atkins:

and it was hard. Well, you couldn't, there was no way of, there was no professional colour services really. In the mid-60s, there was nothing in South Australia. Yeah. So that... that really got the thing started for us was being able to process colour. And, of course, at that stage, you're saying goodbye to black and white. Like, as a business person, you're going, wow, we're in this new world. And so what you saw is you're looking back going, hey, we can't forget black and white because it's still a beautiful– and I think everyone connects with black. They still do. They have colour everything now, but black and white is still very evocative.

David Haddy:

Yeah. Well, I'm always– I almost prefer black and white to a great degree at the– more recently because of the sort of art styles that I'm trying to always come up with something new then colour has its place and colour has a beautiful nature all of its own but there's something about black and white for portraiture that brings you there's no colour to confuse your brain and unless you're colour blind colour will take over so as soon as you take that out I think the next thing that your caveman human brain goes for is someone's face and if there's a facing that black and white picture somewhere, you'll find it straight away. Whereas in colour, you look at usually greens. I think what the eye sees the most and you'll look at all the scenery if it's outdoors and then you'll find the person. Take the same shot in black and white, you'll look at the person and then you'll find the scenery.

Paul Atkins:

Do you look at a colour shot and see the tones in black and white? I think so. Do you look at a scene and go?

David Haddy:

Yeah, I think I love looking at the light filtering through things. A lot of my, most of my outdoor work is with backlit, side lit, trying to get, evoke the feeling of what's there and the feel of them, not just the person. Yeah, yeah. I'll walk, if I'm doing location work, it would be find the scene, put the people in it rather than there's a nice person and then just walk around what's the background around that person. I'll actually walk over to where we have to go and then we'll concentrate on them but you want to start with the end in mind in terms of the look yeah that sort of thing

Paul Atkins:

and right right from the beginning with your film work you were always working on you know you said unique uh ways of photographing people and reap and reproducing the work and you've always maintained your own printing operation yeah you've always done um uh like you've You came up with a great product. Was it LightScribe?

David Haddy:

We've got LightSketch, which I had trademarked years ago. And that was a darkroom technique? That came from the darkroom. That's actually digital, but it came from the darkroom technique. Prior to that, I invented the word water parchment, because in the late 90s, when I had darkroom in my studio, I handmade some paper. So using liquid light, watercolour papers, made my own photographic paper, stored them in all the darkroom boxes we need to do. Sometimes if there was a slight leak somewhere that you didn't know about, by the time you process it, there's very much unique pieces each time because there might have been something that slightly got onto the paper. A very long process. So eventually when I decide that I should make sure I accounted for my time, the price kept going up. relevant to the time involved. But for those who really wanted something, a piece of artwork, it was nice to be able to create something that was unique. I think I've always tried to find some niche if I can. And then you go through periods where everyone's sort of doing similar things and you're doing similar things. And I think they're the times over all the years that maybe I've just... lost a little bit of the oomph is when things aren't you don't come up with something different i think i've always

Paul Atkins:

lost you lose you lose the love for all the the the passion for making the work

David Haddy:

i think the passion for me comes from being able to create something that is uh beautiful and seeing the response from someone else when you give it to them is it's also i guess photography is a little bit like that we We get our kudos from people giving us feedback going, that's wonderful, thank you very much. So we do feed off that a lot. But in return, we can just aim for something that is particularly special, I think. And I know I'm a perfectionist, which is a real pain because… Is that a problem, is it? It's a problem in as much as you have to remember that They don't see that one-tenth difference if you just do that again. You know that in printing in the lab as well. You get it to exceptionally good, but higher than that, no one's ever going to tell except for the actual printer who knows it needs to be two points. Yeah, but sometimes

Paul Atkins:

for us, sometimes it's the customer. So if I was printing for you, you would have a closer look at it than most clients. And my objective would be to make you happy, and then everyone else, if they don't see it, at least I'm happy and you're happy. Yeah. You know, so you have that same issue. Do you feel that's held you back over the years in any way?

David Haddy:

Held back in terms of the amount of time you spend doing things, but not held back in terms of the work because I always want to be proud that someone's got work that they're going to have on their walls for the rest of their lives and pass it on to their kids.

Paul Atkins:

Because you see the print as like that final object. piece of art that you've made. For you, it's not about anything in between, is it? It's that final piece of art.

David Haddy:

That's right. In the digital world, I still prefer to have the finished works on some form of substrate, paper or canvas or what have you. And that little extra dimension of, you don't really feel it because it's behind glass, but you can imagine feeling it if you give someone a piece of paper. But something that's visceral like that, something that you can almost feel the image in the paper has a different feel to something on a glossy screen that you see on the screen. That's aside from corporate work, which needs to be, you know, the end product needs to be digital, so that's no problem at all. But we're talking about fine art portraits or work that's going to be out in someone's home, that sort of thing. So when, every now and again, I'll go through the suppliers and look at the paper stocks that are out there and go, oh, I like this, then I'll do some tests. do my own profiles of paper as well to make sure that we can get the most out of the blacks and the whites, which are the two ends that sometimes get missed out. So that's the technical perfection side of things that other people

Paul Atkins:

do. Once you get that right and you've bedded down with the material, it's not something you play with every day, but you might play with every couple of months.

David Haddy:

Yeah, that's right. The same with profiling your screens and everything else that we need to do to make sure the colour's right from the camera through to the end. That's a good thing. Yeah, so from the perfection side of things, that's, I guess, where I come from. But I've learned to stop. We used to make audiovisuals, you know, multiple projectors, lots of slides, sync them up with soundtracks, put the sound and the music together. And so eventually when you press play, everything plays itself and did a lot of that back in the day too. I did something with your dad, John, for the racing industry when Colin Hayes was in retirement. So this big multi-projector show that was on at the Hilton.

Paul Atkins:

It's a strange thing when you think about what this multi-projector show is. It's not a movie.

David Haddy:

No, it's

Paul Atkins:

a slideshow time to music.

David Haddy:

Yes. I think for those who have never seen slides, I went to my years ago, I went to my daughter's primary school and I brought a projector with me to show some images somewhere in the world that I'd traveled of interest at the time. And the, I knew I was big. Coming older, when the teacher said, now, boys and girls, this is called a slide projector. Instead of a digital something or other, you know. Yeah, yeah. That wasn't, it was a while ago. It's a magic

Paul Atkins:

things, but they just, they're not really relevant, are they, when you think about it? Not now, no. I mean, but still the idea of stills, I mean, we see it when, like if you're in the Apple world and you have an iPhone, you see that, memories thing come up where it reminds you there's some anniversaries there and you get this little slideshow and they put some music into it. That's what we're talking about.

David Haddy:

We are, yes. Back in the day you had four projectors. And this is a way to project something in a big hall. So years ago I travelled around the world and a big formative part of my life back then and then I had slide film, had to have film, didn't have digital back then and you could only carry so much in a rucksack when you're travelling. How long were you going for? Around about nine, ten months, but the first three and a half months was travelling from Kathmandu to London in a truck, so I couldn't really go to a shop and buy more stuff.

Paul Atkins:

I

David Haddy:

think going to Kathmandu way, there was a limit in Nepal as to how much film you could bring in. Otherwise, it became commercial and you might be trying to sell it. So I think it was 30 or 40 rolls, 36 exposures. That's it. And that has to last you for at least months before you might be able to get something somewhere. What camera gear did you take? Back then, it was Nikon SLRs. And I went to Hong Kong on the way and miraculously caught up with a photographer who I was trying to catch up with, who I knew. bought stuff in Hong Kong all the time, Kevin O'Dailey. Oh, yeah. And I couldn't catch up with him in Adelaide, and I was walking down the streets in Hong Kong, small place that Hong Kong is, and there he was walking down the footpath towards me. Yeah, yeah. Miraculously. So I went to the right shop. The small world. Yeah. But, yes, travelling that way, I think the memories of those who are in the digital world go oh these people talk about film but it does teach you sometimes the necessity of viewing things through a finder and pressing the button when you see the photograph you'd like rather than or the shot you like rather than going and one of those might be nice and spending time afterwards trying to find it you still would have had out

Paul Atkins:

of the 40 times by 36 out of all those pictures you still would have had a small percentage that you would really really thrilled with? Or was it everything you were really thrilled

David Haddy:

with? I think majority are. I mean, you always go through them and edit them. And then those got put into an audio-visual slideshow, which was back then two projectors synced in with a device that could control them that ran off a tape track, which then I put– Ask the Landon, really. Which put music, soundtrack and voiceover and it was a travelogue for the whole thing. It ran over. We used to show it in various halls and various things. So I think the idea of what we're talking about, the AVs, it's like on your screen but something you can project into a hall using projection screens like going into a movie theatre but it's run from projectors, that sort of thing.

Paul Atkins:

So how many times did you show that show? Oh, I... I

David Haddy:

wouldn't know. Quite a lot. Enough to forget how many. Yeah, yeah. The usual sort of church halls and all the oldies who love to remember where they've just been travelling. And the good thing about Navy is you press play when it's done like that and it just keeps going. So you can't have someone go, oh, I remember being there behind that rock. And then 10 minutes later you've sort of got off that rock and gone to the desert somewhere.

Paul Atkins:

So that's a really interesting thing, a really interesting– What's the right word? Contrast. Okay. So we have someone who's been a portrait photographer running a portrait photography studio for how many years?

David Haddy:

Well, when I went overseas, I'd been, I guess I count my professional career from about 1982 onwards. Okay. So I went overseas in 87. So I'd been photographing professionally for that long. Do the maths. Come

Paul Atkins:

on.

David Haddy:

Oh, five. Okay. Wow. And became quite busy working from a home base. And then I had various names of businesses back then. One was Quality House Photography, which when I was overseas, I just seemed to remember going, oh, that's like a chocolate box. Can't do that. Oh, right. Sounds like a chocolate box. I forgot. And then Private Collections Photography was invented sort of probably– when I was thinking about stuff with a notebook on a hilltop somewhere, a desert somewhere. And so I came back and after travelling you become enthusiastic about all sorts of things and then so soon after that's sort of when I found a premises on Doothy Street and was there for a good 10, 11, 12 years and then… So 35 years total? 40 years? 43 years now, I suppose,

Paul Atkins:

yeah. My point of the question is- You add up now. Yeah, okay. So we're taking, if we say 43 years, like the wanderlust you must have got from that travel, what enabled you to stay- in one place and not in one place, well, in Adelaide and do this, run the studio when you had this experience. Was it so shocking you got it out of your system? No,

David Haddy:

I think it's always something you'd love to do more of. Sometimes just commercial reasons, you know, you need to earn a living and stuff like that. And then you find if you have a business premises, you sort of can't walk away from it sometimes. Sometimes we think we go into business so that we have more freedom, but sometimes actually it's the opposite way around. It does lock you in. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but you do get, fairly entrenched in what you're doing.

Paul Atkins:

So you've had a premise for how many of those 43 years?

David Haddy:

I think now on the fourth premises, I suppose, but it was there. And then a little break from that for a very brief time and then found, actually did a little bit of work over at Theatre of Adelaide to help him out and manage a few things. Tony of Town. Tony of Town. Yeah. In the early 2000s. And then... then put together more of a gallery-style studio in Unley, which was just opposite the Unley Council Chamber, sort of down from Sturt Football Club, if anyone knows Unley. Well, again, I should say for those... And that was not about 13, 14 years.

Paul Atkins:

It's a nice area. It's a fun area where people go to shop and expect to spend a little bit more.

David Haddy:

Yeah. And I think we tend to gravitate to where we... around the areas that we sort of grow up as well. I... I grew up and went to school, so not too far away from all those places. And is that your client

Paul Atkins:

base, though? Is that where you're drawing your clients from? A

David Haddy:

lot, yeah. There are a lot of homes that I can go to and my signature's on their wall somewhere in that area because I've seen a lot of people over those years. And I'm seeing some of the kids now come through, well, for a while now, have come through with their kids. And I photographed, like, the parents in the creeks and their homes and stuff like that way back when, or the studios. And they've... look me up because my signature's on the work that mum and dad got of them and then I photographed their kids. That's really, really nice.

Paul Atkins:

That's amazing. That's like, okay, so there's two things that I would pull apart from that concept is it's very typical that those that run a physical studio space have to have a business model that often doesn't allow for repeat business. Now, I don't mean to say this, but it's a very rare thing, people running a physical studio these days isn't it dave well like there's so few yeah around and that is that is because it's an expense that that is right on top of everything working from home obviously takes it away and so you don't have to quite get the same sort of money so people running a physical space often have to have higher prices or a model that gets people to spend higher prices and that doesn't often mean that people come back because they've got away going wow that costs a lot and then you just don't see them again

David Haddy:

Yeah. At best.

Paul Atkins:

At worst, it's like, they ripped me off and blah, blah,

David Haddy:

blah. I think it's like any industry anywhere. If you know you need to charge higher prices or I should say have a higher value because price is only determined on the value you give to people. So you give people a high value in what they receive and it's not a problem. So that means not just the product but the service and looking after people and… making sure they're okay and being polite and just getting on with people. I think as a portrait and wedding in the past, photographer and everything else, you have to be a people person. At least it helps. I'm not sure about, some people can just do it as a commercial job and go, and I'm going to get that photographer and I'm going to get that person. They're going to be the business person. Is that you? Well, I love, I like all of those areas, but I think what I've learned is I love, I need people. So if I'm stuck these days, if I'm stuck in the production room or in front of a computer way too much these days because that's our dark room these days, I do find that I might need to go out for coffee or just sit around and see people. I need to know that there are people out there. I don't want to be a hermit. There are times when you just want to lock yourself away and do stuff.

Paul Atkins:

You said to me earlier that– you'd be comfortable with a camera in your hand into a room and organising a large group of people. But you said, without the camera, I had to learn how to walk into and be that person. I know you said you like people, but is that– I'm being really picky and annoying here, but I understand what you mean. It's very hard to go up to someone and say, hi, I'm David. Yeah. This is what I do. Is that the thing you had difficulty with or is you like relationships with people or are you like observing people or?

David Haddy:

I think it's, everything's, a lot of things tend to stem from the way you grow up and your school life and that sort of thing. I tend to be a bit quieter back then. And that probably has an influence with how you behave as an adult as you get older. So yes, I can go in and have chats with people, but in the back of it, can still feel a little bit sort of on the outside, like not necessarily best friends with people, but, you know, they can have a conversation over there and sort of move over to another group or whatever. With a camera in your hands, you're sort of– it's almost like you're sort of like the boss of the room. Yeah, yeah. Because– and not being bossy, you're just sort of helping to organise people and they're looking to you. So I guess camera over the years has become– helpful in that way. Yeah. And when photographing weddings, you know, you go outside of church and you've got 200 people that are spilling out and trying to talk and everything else and not paying attention. So there've been times where, you know, you become the, you become the idiot with a camera in a nice way, in a suit, standing on top of a wall, you know, not falling into the traffic and getting everyone to look at you. And if you, and just, the patter of silly jokes and other things just to make sure people are looking at you and smiling genuinely instead of going, geez. And that comes from photographing kids as well. Kids are more genuine than adults, generally. They haven't developed that filter that we all sort of… Well, from about the age of two and a half or three, some of them learn the camera smile because Aunty Joan's been going, you know, smile. And they go… So to break that off and it's just chatting. playing, doing things and just making sure that they're trying to catch that split second when people are being themselves. I think that's the art of portrait photography.

Paul Atkins:

So you're watching, like you don't have long to learn these people. Do you have a pre-sale? Like what happens at booking? Let's look at right now if someone was to book David and they didn't know

David Haddy:

you. At least a phone call. For the higher end sort of work, I would always suggest they come in and look at some work, particularly if they're looking for major pieces of artwork. If they're more just would like something for the family but it's not really necessarily going to something that they're going to be making look like a painting or a drawing or those sorts of things from the photography, then a phone call might be fine. But we still need to find out what sort of people they are. What are they like? Have you got an idea? It's amazing how many... 90% of the people ring, perhaps it might be promotional, it might be referral, what have you. Oh, can we have a photograph of the family? Sure. What would you like to do with it? Silence. They just have only got to the point of having a photograph taken. Okay. Not what you're going to do with it. So I think you need to step through that because it's like going to one of the Harvey Normans of the world or the big box stores or what have you, where you go, I need to get a fridge. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but where's it going? What's the room? What color? All those things. In photography, we tend to go, people like a photograph. Okay, come and photograph you. But what do they want? And it might be that you go outdoors and take beautiful photographs. Then afterwards, they see some work in your studio or some samples. Oh, that would have been nice. Or we should have started there first. So I think it's really good to step through the process with people and also just become a friend so that by the time you've gone through– the chat beforehand, the photography with them, and then we get some work organised and they come in for us, they come in in-person sales, IPS is the common term for it, but they come in and see something projected up really nice or even if you do it these days over Zoom or whatever, you're stepping through things with people and helping them to get what they want, not trying to sell them something you want to sell, but helping them get what they want. So if you know what they want in the first place, from a business point of view, then you are selling what you want, but actually you're helping them get what they want because you've asked them in the first place.

Paul Atkins:

So on that question of the people coming to you, how many people understand what they expect to spend by the time they've spoken with you

David Haddy:

all? We try and broach that right up front, I think. So, for example, at the moment we've got some– promotional type of sessions just to help our portfolio. By our, I mean, business partner Deanna Dunbar and I got together to perform LA Portrait Studios in the last six or so years. And every now and again, it's nice to be able to just have a bit more control over the sessions that you do so you can produce work that you'd like to show other people. So we offer some of these. And they're... particularly those sorts of people, you need to just broach the idea. This is the style of work we do. We specialize in art style. We do have a value to them. This is sort of roughly where it comes from, goes to, that sort of thing. And then if they want to back out, then that's fine. No problem at all. But if that's okay, then at least we know where we're starting from. So we don't have that, what's the term, sticker shock. At the

Paul Atkins:

end, you don't want that. What normally happens at that stage? How many people are that you see? Because they're coming in from referral or promotion, so they don't particularly look for you and go, I want some wall art. They've just got, as you said, I want a photograph of my

David Haddy:

whatever. And it comes from the communication from the very beginning. Even in that sort of situation, we're saying, this is what we wanted for, to create walls. art, to create art pieces. But all your marketing is saying we do. Everything should be pointed towards what you want as your ideal client in the end. And then you'll have those that just want something small. That's no problem. And then you also have people that are your ideal client that just want the world. So I've photographed a lovely sort of semi-retired couple recently who Down the beach, because they wanted something in their house, a nice piece of artwork, they were referred from others, and it was just a nice, gentle process. They come in, they see some work, oh, that's nice, yeah, something like that would be nice, okay, and we set a date, we'll go down to the beach, we photograph them, and then they come in, they look through them, and we knew that they'd like something that's a bit more artwork, so... I spent the time and created a master's type of work, which is half photograph, half painting kind of feeling, which I do by hand. By hand, via Photoshop and everything else that we do. There's no buttons being pushed. Yeah, pen and tablets and all those sorts of stuff to make sure it works well. And then print it on beautiful fine art paper and then the whole process and then invite them in to choose the frame. It's a long process in the end. If you add it all up, it's hours and hours and hours. Days, actually. And then at the end, you asked them what it was like, and the response was, it's exactly what I wanted. And that's what you'd like to get from every client, of course. But it comes from becoming their partner in creating something that they're involved with, rather than just, in my case at least, rather than just being a service where you're just supplying a picture. And that's... And going back to your original question about pricing and sticker shop and all that sort of stuff, if people are aware that's the sort of thing that you do in a very brief form, letting them know up front, then they're aware that this is sort of the process they're going to be going through. So by the time we get to viewing them, if they just want one, that's fine. If they want a whole set of them, that's fine. And just making sure people are quite comfortable with what they're investing in. Yeah.

Paul Atkins:

No, I agree. Like, I think there's nothing– and I think the model that has been so destructive is the model where people don't expect that. You know, what I think the model was, you get them photographed because it's a trust situation. They employ you and they've got to trust you're going to do something nice. Now, if you show them something, a beautiful image that you've captured of them– then they might be more likely to spend money on it. Whereas if it comes back a bit further where they know that there's going to be money involved in this process before that, then the trust and everything is wrapped up in the whole process of the capture and they're heading towards an artwork at the end.

David Haddy:

And also that circles back to what I was talking about being a people person. If you genuinely care about your clients and try and well, in my particular case, I'm quite happy to treat them almost like they're close friends as soon as I talk to them. And that attracts those who like that sort of thing and probably repels those who'd rather have just a business transaction. So I'd probably tend not to get those people in the first place. It also just means that you'd love to see them again at some stage. You don't necessarily see them again, but it does, for those who do come back from all those years ago, The hardest thing is contacting people. I was going

Paul Atkins:

to say, do you spend any effort on that after-sales contact or re-contact in a few years' time?

David Haddy:

I've had databases from the very, very beginning. And luckily, back in even when I very, very first started, I started naming all my files and things with a date backwards, which is a normal practice these days. But a date backwards with a code at the end of it so they always be in a numerical order. Year, year, month, month, day, day, and then something for whatever it is. When digital came along, of course, that just went straight into it because that keeps everything nice and clean on your screen. It's critical, yeah. You can find it straight away rather than sort of a name and is it A or is it Z or is it last name or first name or whatever. Yeah. So that's always been the case. And so I've got it in a careful storage area. We've got– it must have about– both mine and the family tree, negatives, about 30,000 individual negatives, sort of all archived and filed in envelopes and they've all got dates. And we've got a database from 1982 onwards and we've got the progress from handmade things to commercial things. And every time you change databases, it's a little bit of a pain because you're going to lose something. But pretty much I can, if someone asks, have you got something, I can type in. their name and at least get a code or a name or in the very old days some negative file books with everything written in. So you have tried mining that? To a point. This comes down to time versus energy versus want. How much you want to actually go and search through things.

Paul Atkins:

I suppose if you've got people still coming in your door or contacting you then you don't need to chase that Yeah,

David Haddy:

I think it's good to, you do need, the referrals aren't quite what they used to be. I think in. Is

Paul Atkins:

that because of other photographers?

David Haddy:

I think it's more a case of the digital world we're in and the sense that you can, there are a lot, there have always been a lot of photographers, but there's, I wouldn't suggest photographers are competition. Everyone has their own little niche, which is, I have no problem with at all. I think it's great to have lots of people out there. Yeah, yeah. Knowing what professional photography can be. Yeah. As far as the databases go, yeah, we write out to them and at least we've got people there that we can write to. But in the old days, of course, we didn't have emails, didn't have mobile phones, just have addresses. And people would expect your mail. I remember back in the late 80s somewhere we had a Christmas mail out of, I think it was something like, what was it, about 5,500 individual letters and invitations for Christmas went out. For a promotion. That's a lot of mail. What's the response rate, incidentally, for five and a

Paul Atkins:

half thousand?

David Haddy:

Five and a half thousand. What was it back then? Well, it was a program to invite people back in for a session and give something to someone else, you know, to invite them in, that sort of thing that used to be around. And it's something we still do. But the... I think the response, well, it was enough to keep us busy.

Paul Atkins:

Yeah, so it's probably 5% or something

David Haddy:

like that. Probably something like that. I mean, it used to be that if you got 2% to 3%, you're lucky, I guess. Of course. And if you get 5%, and occasionally we do some of those, we might get out of that, that number of people would be more than 2% to 5% when you're more targeted to people that you know where you're good clients and you get a high percentage of returns. Yeah, yeah,

Paul Atkins:

of course. It's fascinating. And I just love the fact that And the reason why we're talking is that you've sustained this idea.

David Haddy:

I think some of it, to be quite honest, is just blunt stubbornness. That's what I'm going to say. How much is you? To

Paul Atkins:

not leave. Let's imagine you're in Sydney, Melbourne or something, and the traffic was one and a half, two times what it was over all these years. You probably would have had an employee. Yeah. Do you think– oh, you may have already. I had

David Haddy:

employees,

Paul Atkins:

yeah. But now you may still have one. Do you think– how much of the business is you? I mean, this is a dumb question. Everything's you, of course. But do you think it's something you could pass on and train to someone else to do what you're doing?

David Haddy:

I've often thought that, and yes, to a great extent. It depends. The side of things that you push as being unique for yourself can be– anything in your own business. For me, or for us, it's the fact that we create in-house still. We hand print. Now, that may not be anything that anyone else bothers with. You know, the clients, perhaps the public, well, that's fine. We don't really care where you get it from as long as it's nice in the end. But when that information plus seeing the final product, it's a little bit like going to a high-end jeweller who hand-makes something instead of a really nice piece of jewellery that's in a window somewhere. Totally. It's the idea that someone's created for you. There have been times where I've always signed anything I've done and with Deanna as well, if she's photographed it, she signs the work. So I think it's important to have pride in what you've given out. So that's where the signature comes from, in my opinion. They know who it is and they know who to blame. Yeah, who to blame. Thanks very much. But it's also a case of, well, I've got enough pride in this and I'm going to sign it. And subconsciously there's something on the wall with your signature on. You want it to be good when it goes out, for a start, that side of things. Yeah. There's a little bit of probably hubris. You just like to see your name up on people's walls. Of course, that's part of the ego-driven side of things in photography that we tend to be in when we're in this business. But generally, it's just that feeling that someone's got something really nice that they can have for a long, long time.

Paul Atkins:

Yeah, I mean, that's it. You're making things forever and we know they get... Generational hand-down of this sort of work is a thing and it's... It's going to struggle for it to happen going forward unless people have those physical objects because you get handed an iCloud account when your parents pass and you'll probably pull some things out of it. But, you know, will your children do that? How many tens of thousands of images do you want to go through? 60,000. I've got 60,000 in mine. Unless you're doing something with that. Anyway, can I ask you about your collaboration with Deanna and what was the decision behind then having a partner in the collaboration in a business sense like that? Sure.

David Haddy:

She had her own business down in the southeast and she was doing… Is Deanna Dunbar photography? Deanna Dunbar, correct, and photographics. And she had a lot of people that she photographed, lots of weddings that she's done also. And

Paul Atkins:

she'd say she's farmland… country photographers, so dealing with the community.

David Haddy:

Yeah, but also, and doing some work in the city, and I was doing mostly city work and some work in the country, so it sort of gelled a little bit. In fact, my family background is Bordertown Mandala, my grandparents, my mum comes from there, that sort of thing. I didn't realise. And I found out later that Deanna was photographing all these weddings way back when, and In Mandala and everything else. I never did those. Even though my family was out there. So that's quite funny. It's a beautiful place, Mandala. It's lovely. And I didn't, when you grow up somewhere like that, it's just a little tiny country town. Yeah, yeah. You think no one knows anything about it. And then later in your life, you go, oh yeah, I know that. All these people going, oh yeah, I've been to the pub there. Oh yeah. Well, that's

Paul Atkins:

one of those, like it's south of the main Adelaide-Melbourne road. Yes. And no one, everyone goes to Melbourne. They don't really go to Horsham or- They go to Kingston from there. Yeah, they just swoop over. But- If you go like even 10, 15 minutes off the track down that road, you're in a very different world. It's not that sort of a desert-y feel that it's

David Haddy:

supposed to be. It's very Australian country. Yeah, you expect bushrangers to pop out. That's Victoria. But yes, and so going down there as a kid, I'd go down the train if I didn't go down with parents and what have you. I'm the oldest of five, so we just fond memories of being on the farm. And it was in the… family for about 100 years before it was sold sort of not too long ago by my uncle.

Paul Atkins:

Right.

David Haddy:

So, yeah, I grew up– I think that's in your blood a little bit when you do that too. I still enjoy being outdoors and that sort of nature side of things is sort of built in there a little bit

Paul Atkins:

somewhere. Yeah, because quite a lot of your portraits are taken outdoors.

David Haddy:

Yeah. And, again, some of that originally was– Maybe that was part of it. I didn't know at the time, that idea of where I'd come from and grown up through, going up and down there to say hello. But it was also a part of, you know, everyone was in a studio. So, A, that was the money side when you first start, starting a studio, sort of don't have the money, but also wanting to be different. So being able to go out to people. There weren't many... There were a couple of photographers, David Simpson, there were a couple of others that were doing that sort of work back then, black and white, children, homes. And I sort of followed them without realising it until I saw their names on some of the walls I was photographing as well. And yeah, and then getting kids through kindies and what have you like that, but basically just... And that just sounds horrible. So just bear that in mind as we're talking about a photographic photographer. I

Paul Atkins:

know it's never sounds great. Um, so, but the, you know, the idea of having the studio is that you could put more people through the studio in a day, whereas going to someone's house or the backyard,

David Haddy:

it's one or two a day or something like that, or a few a week or what have you. Um, And it becomes that personal service. So I think I've always been more of a lower volume personal service type of person. And sorry, going back to your question, Deanna and I, I think we caught up a few times briefly. I didn't sort of realize, but I photographed a headshot years and years before from one of my other studios. And then we're at an AIPP conference. dinner function and we're sort of both talking about just changing direction. I'd just sort of moved out of the Unleashed studio and she was thinking of something else and changing direction and we sort of got talking and gelled from there. We sort of got together and formed Adelaide Portrait Studios.

Paul Atkins:

Six years is a long time to be

David Haddy:

like, I'll bring any years and everything else. Sort of, it was, that was fun. And so we found a place in Kent town, which is pretty much on the very, edge of Adelaide City, almost from anyone outside of South Australia basically is Adelaide. I found a nice single-fronted little old bungalow that had already been converted upstairs to a nice big open space, so we had a nice big open studio, sort of big commercial-sized studio type of thing. And then a room downstairs for viewings and a little gallery down the hallway and a production room out in the back. And yeah, so we're there for a quite a few years. And then towards the end of COVID, the owner of that building that we're leasing from decided to sell because, you know, prices were starting to go up. And then the new owner wanted it for themselves. So we found somewhere else, had to find somewhere else. Just a nice old grand old hundred year old home that was sort of made into a studio now. Different from the other one. Yeah. Very nice frontage and everything else, but certainly different from the commercial space. Yeah. It's a nice feel for people to come in from a portrait point of view, but it doesn't have the big open, big window studio that we had in Kent Town, so swings and roundabouts. So we went from there and together we've been able to sort of pull the people we know and photograph them from different directions and It does help to have someone you can sort of chat about. It's a lonely business.

Paul Atkins:

Like photography is very solo and we don't have the, like we don't have the ARPP, we don't have a social get together group anymore. And whilst the ARPP was, there's a lot of stuff about being a professional photographer, a lot of support. The big thing for most of us was the social.

David Haddy:

I think, yeah, something that is a little missing is the, no matter what you thought of some of the, background of the end of the AIPP, which is completely different from the rest of the 60 years of it.

Paul Atkins:

Oh, that stuff was always there in a different form. You know, the politics of it,

David Haddy:

the people wanting… There's always someone who'd like to be in control of something somewhere. Especially if

Paul Atkins:

you're a volunteer, you've got to get paid somehow.

David Haddy:

Get paid with personal ownership. That's right, yeah. So there was always some of that. But I think it formed a community, which was really good. Yeah. We tried to have coffee every month or something like that, or just have it open if anyone would drop in. Sometimes there were three people, sometimes there were 20-odd people. It was hard for the country people as well, and particularly Deanna knows that, and towards the very end, sort of in the late, When did we finish that? 2017. We're trying to get out to the country a bit more just to help in that side of things. But again, it comes down to community and having contracts and things that photographers have. Oh, the business support. The business support side of things. And also a sense of you need to be able to have these items ticked off your list to be a photographer, a bit of compliance, which was sidelined. Do you think it's necessary? I think it would be wonderful for the community at large to see that you don't have to have a badge that says you belong to something these days because it's such a wide, wide world that we're in. But I think it does– It can create a little bit more credence for some, in some areas, to say, I have these credentials. In Germany, to be a photographer, I used to be, I think it's still the same, you actually have to have done a course, you have to have credentials to be a photographer, whereas here and lots of other places in the world, you just put a sign up saying, yeah, I've got a camera. So I think everyone learns on the job, to have support and mentors. Mentorship was a big one too. It's just to have people you can talk to going, you know, I'm trying to do this. And then someone will go, oh, I've already done that. Yeah, this is how you should start.

Paul Atkins:

Yeah. I mean, you can see people in small groups and like Facebook groups and that solving some of those problems. And you're right, the travel issue is, like whether it be country photographers or just people now living– no longer Adelaide is a 15-minute city. It feels more like a half-hour city. And getting to an event– and it's even worse than any other state. So I'm sure that taxed the ability to have a monthly get-together. I

David Haddy:

think so, yeah. Many people probably couldn't get to that. But it was there just to– and also for those who could make it, but also just to say, hey, it's out there.

Paul Atkins:

Yeah.

David Haddy:

Because I was involved with it as far as on the– committees and things in the late 80s 90s and then again more recently so but yeah it's a community then there are a few other people have picked up that baton as far as community photography communities and that sort of thing which is nice to see and I'm all for everyone even if they have small groups just to be able to find other people that they can then just go out and

Paul Atkins:

yeah

David Haddy:

and communicate with so they're not on their own yeah

Paul Atkins:

I mean we are all looking for Where are these people gathering? I mean, you and I are both a little old to be really saying how it should work. Yeah, absolutely. We have, you know, 20, 30-year-olds running the industry that are successful and have their businesses and have their ideas and all this kind of stuff. What do they want? And it's really hard to, A, find them and, B… I don't know if they really want for anything as far as that. They're just making it

David Haddy:

work. It was interesting, the question at an event we were both at sort of earlier in the week, the question was raised, do we need a professional body? Yeah. I was really interested to hear. Some said yes for the compliance side of things more than anything else. Some was the community. Some would be, why? What am I going to get out of it? Which has always been the question anyway. But I think... yeah for me personally it's community to be able to we used to come to the lab you know we're all our labs are in our our desktops and our photoshop's i think these days and of course we used to come to you yeah we'd meet in the front shop and that used to be a little community spot uh often in the professional labs and what have you because that's where we'd have to all meet and get our films and stuff like that and i presume some people still do that but it's a way different from what it used to

Paul Atkins:

be oh yeah like it's it's it's not uh i don't think it's a thing i think people talk uh there's lunch groups that get together every now and then and and like it is the community is still there those that know and i've been in sydney where a young wedding photographer who occasionally with a group of other photographers they help each other out sharing weddings around when it's too busy they sat in a cafe and edited for the morning Like they came along and saw us and saw our products and that at this cafe that we'd holed up in for the day and meeting photographers. And then these guys just sat in the corner and continued their talking over their screens as they edited and talked about the latest wedding. And I was thinking, hang on, that's the formation of an

David Haddy:

industry. Either it's my male brain or I just can't multitask in that way if I have to try and edit and talk and look at other people. We're not

Paul Atkins:

that generation.

David Haddy:

No, no. My daughter can, I don't know, be on an iPad, watch a movie, and also talk to someone, and somehow or other, everything sinks in at the same time.

Paul Atkins:

Miracle, isn't it? Oh, yeah. It's a miracle of modern

David Haddy:

society.

Paul Atkins:

So now we're talking about, now we're getting close to the end of our hours chat. I would like your thoughts about what you feel is where you and your business is going, and you as a fine art photographer, and where do you think the industry might be headed? Just, you know, broad brushstrokes.

David Haddy:

Yeah. I'd like to think that we've got a little bit more of a visual, we have a very visual world. Everything, you've got Facebook, you've got all this, everything's visual. I think the public's idea of what something really great is has been lowered in general.

Paul Atkins:

Hang on, let me go back in. You think that the people's understanding of what is a really nice photograph has been reduced? I

David Haddy:

think people can recognise really nice work and I'm not suggesting anyone's got bad work out there, but I think to a degree when you see something that's just like pops amazing for me, I go, oh, wow, that's great. But it might, if you're looking at Facebook as an example, might get just as many likes as something that I think would be, oh, that's a nice photograph. It's well lit, you know, nice smile. And sometimes it's a smile and the personality that comes from the model or the person in it that gets the most rather than it. Of course, yeah. My background means I look at it from a technical point of view. When I used to judge at awards and things, you know, I would tend to be more the technical person. type of judge rather than the, I just like the way that they've got their leg in there. Yeah, but the lighting's all crap, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But what about that over there? So that's just, that's where I come from. Yeah. I think, but I think you came to that

Paul Atkins:

because, oh, you were like, it's a very insular world judging work and

David Haddy:

looking at it. It's a very strange. Like, do people care about that? I think it's nice for your own sake that you can say you've won awards. Some people. Yep. Some people go, oh, that's cool, and other people don't really care as far as your consumers go. But it's just that little extra level of credence for the photographer themselves. But, yeah, back to where we're going. I think the world is such a visual place. There's so many areas that people can go into, and I think it's more a case of hoping that people delve into what they want and make it their own in all the ways– Particularly when judging, for example, you think, oh, everything's been done. And then someone comes up with something that you just haven't thought of before, even though after all these years. And that would have been before I even started, you know. It always happens. It's always someone that comes up with something new and bright and interesting that's shot in a different way. It's in colour, black and white. It's upside down on its head. Digital AI is going to be an interesting avenue to look through. Hopefully we can... traverse that like everything else. Well, 35

Paul Atkins:

fill was a disruption, wasn't it?

David Haddy:

Yeah, and when video came in, oh, it's the end of photography as we know it. But, you know, obviously that wasn't the case. Do you

Paul Atkins:

feel that AI is a bigger threat than all of that?

David Haddy:

I think just like when desktop publishing came in in the 80s, for those old enough to know, suddenly you could have 75 fonts, 10 colors, oh, that looks cool, and it looks, I don't know, not very good. And then graphic designers came uh, slumped, but then they came back up again when people realized that actually people who know what they're doing with this, these fonts and colors, um, really do make it something special. I think that's like photography. You know, we learn how to use our new tools all the time to get the best out of it. And then there'll be, uh, those who see it for what it is, which is going, oh, wow, that person knows what they're doing. I'll go there. Yeah. And from that point of view. Yeah. I think, uh, Yeah, it's nice to see everyone's very visually aware more than words. You can tell that every time the algorithms say, you've got too many words in this. People don't read anymore. So telling a story visually is more and more important. And that's what you've done all your life and what

Paul Atkins:

professional photographers do.

David Haddy:

That's right. We tell a story in one image. I like people to look at one image on a wall and go and have a feeling behind it, not just a nice picture of someone's smile and a likeness, but what did it feel like to be there that day? If it's in the studio, the feeling between people, if it's outdoors, maybe it's the light coming through the trees, maybe it's the feeling of the memory of just having picnics with your kids or walking on the beach or in a studio, maybe it's that feeling. Just a little tiny hug you can tell from the smile lines in the face that it's a genuine smile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A glint in the eye or a shadow somewhere. We photograph shadows really, don't we?

Paul Atkins:

Yeah, otherwise it would be flat, wouldn't

David Haddy:

it? Exactly, yeah. So slight segue into the technical. But yeah, we're actually, we think we're photographing light, but we're not. We're photographing shadows because without them we have a two-dimensional object. That sort of thing. So

Paul Atkins:

this is where I think your expertise of relationships with people and that sort of ability to quickly form a bond with a couple or the sitter or the subject so that when– You go to photograph and you feel like you're pulling, you're seeing that. I

David Haddy:

think you just want to get on someone's wavelength as soon as possible. Sometimes that's more form. Sometimes it's very relaxed. Sometimes it's at kid's level. Sometimes it's at grown-up level. And, yeah, to be able to get on someone's wavelength is the number one thing. And the other number one thing before that is technical side, you just have to know that. back of your hand you don't even worry about that side of things as long as you know all of the technical side versus more important isn't

Paul Atkins:

it the technical come

David Haddy:

well they're a bit of both I think from making something from really good to great the technical side just has to be like knowing how to use a hammer or the right hammer yeah you know for the right nail and that sort of stuff so you know how lighting works you know how the cameras work you know all those you know that your tools yeah and so that when it comes to it If you want that sort of look, you go, okay, I know what I'm doing, where the light's going or where the camera's going. That's second nature. When you click the button, it's almost second nature because you see that split second when you want the picture. So that's all there and has to be learnt or known or just over time. And then it comes back down to what we were just saying. It's just working with, as a people photographer, working with people, just getting on their wavelength, making sure they're either having a good time if you want them to be happy or just get them, slow it down if you want something more subdued and emotional or personal and that sort of thing.

Paul Atkins:

Do you find yourself when, like, for want of a better term, pigeonholing people, like in the back of the, this is not a negative thing, but you have these different types of people and you then change your, your response to them based on that initial like, oh, I think that's that kind of a person and then I'll come in in this way. Is that what's happening? I think it's just subconscious.

David Haddy:

You don't think of it. You don't consciously think of that. It's like meeting anyone on the street. Someone sort of, there's always the problem after photographing weddings, anyone who's photographed a wedding and then they see the bride and groom a few weeks later and they're in their daggiest clothes ever and you've only ever seen them all dressed up. Yeah, with makeup. And they've been on a holiday and on an island and they've got guys have all got half beards and the girls are sort of, yeah. And I come up and say, hi. And there'd been a couple of, I've only photographed them two weeks ago, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that person. I know that person. That's so hard. That's so hard. But you go, you meet people and I think, you know, you just generally want

Paul Atkins:

to get

David Haddy:

on

Paul Atkins:

with each

David Haddy:

other.

Paul Atkins:

It's very automatic. I'm only just curious because we do have a lot of people in our industry. There's a lot of people that, that you might– they're on the spectrum and they do struggle with that interpersonal relationships and how you do that. And, of course, if you think about AI itself, the only reason why it works is because it's looked at examples and how things have worked and then it's applying itself to that. It's learning on a very basic level.

David Haddy:

Yes, that would be interesting. Not too long in the future, I would imagine, just to see how that works with people. Like during COVID, a lot of younger people had to stay inside and they've had to learn, especially the youngest ones that were born back then, have to learn social skills when they weren't in front of other people.

Paul Atkins:

Micro-expressions, all those things that you pick up in a social environment that you learn how to survive by watching. You

David Haddy:

don't know you're doing it. That's right. But you just, as humans, we just tend to. And some people do that more than others. Yeah. Yeah, so I think getting on with people is what I love. And at the same time, if I go on holidays, most of the pictures I come back with don't have people in them whatsoever.

Paul Atkins:

If you're making art for yourself, like, I know what you produce for your clients. But if you're saying David's going to have a David moment, what would you shoot?

David Haddy:

Light and whatever. Light, shadows and objects. It doesn't matter who's in it, what's in it. I love archaeology. I mean, I was considering being an archaeologist way back in the early days. And then I fell into photography and just kept on going with it. So when I have travelled in different places in the world, I love to find... where objects have been from hundreds or thousands of years ago. And some people go, oh, they're just old. But I think it's just amazing that they're still around. So that's the sort of thing I like for myself to have that connection with something like that. But also you drive down the street and you see sometimes of the year, particularly about now, coming up to– Our solstice time. Yeah, winter solstice. Something like that, yeah. So the sun's the lowest as far as where we are. And it comes down the streets in a certain way. And you can see it coming through the trees and the light. And sometimes you just can't help yourself and go, I can't help myself and go. You see the light filtering through. Wouldn't it be nice to have a picture of that? Yeah. And then something that has come from, I'm trying to get out of it actually to do more of my own personal work at some stage, but when you photograph and photograph as a job, there have been plenty of times I've been aware of, I'll take a picture of that, maybe it's on my phone or what have you, or I'd want to get a camera out and go, what would I do with it? It's not healthy, is it? It's not. No, you have to just do it for yourself sometimes and it doesn't have to go anywhere. But sometimes it's like, oh, how many... Thousands of photographs have I got that I've never done anything with. Perhaps that's my next project, to put a little something together of things that I've just photographed just for the hell of it.

Paul Atkins:

I think it's a very healthy thing to do.

David Haddy:

Leave something.

Paul Atkins:

Well, thank you so much for your time today, David. It's

David Haddy:

a pleasure.

Paul Atkins:

It's been a real joy. You've got a really fabulous perspective and experience that is very rare these days, and I'm not suggesting you're a piece of archaeology. You're a living, breathing, working, professional photographer running a studio. I thought you were going to put a fossil in there somewhere. Oops. A living, breathing

David Haddy:

fossil.

Paul Atkins:

Not at all. A fossil that looks like he's still 29. Oh, good. I'll include a photograph for listeners, and you'll be very surprised

David Haddy:

to go and catch I was going to say on radio I look great. All right. Thank you so much.

Paul Atkins:

Thank you.