Atkins Labcast
Hosted by Kate and Paul Atkins, the third generation owners of the oldest photo lab in Australia. A podcast about living with and loving photography. From philosophy to technicalities, for amateurs, artists and professionals, we talk about it all.
Atkins Labcast
Atkins Labcast Episode 57 - Emma Hack
Paul sits down with artist Emma Hack. Emma's work is loved and collected world wide.
https://www.emmahackartist.com.au/
https://www.emmahackgallery.com
Somebody I used to know music video by Gotye: https://youtu.be/8UVNT4wvIGY?si=YHiFeVmC5Yp_O67g
Podcast by: atkins.com.au
G'day listeners, welcome to the Atkins Labcast. In this episode I talk with Emma Hack. Emma's an absolute force of nature who's taught me so much about being a professional artist. She's written her storied career with such tenacity, there's a lot of wisdom in her words. Emma and I sit down together here on beautiful Kaurna country. Enjoy. Hello,
Emma Hack:Emma. Hello. How are you? I'm really good, thanks.
Paul Atkins:I've been wanting to interview you for... hell of a long time because we've been running this podcast and we've been talking about all sorts of things, but what we haven't really scratched on is an artist who actually is so active in making it work as a business. It's such a rare thing, but at the same time keeping your art right at the forefront of everyone's mind and being current with your work. When did you start tackling this style of work and how did you sort of fall into this
Emma Hack:oh my goodness okay so that's like a lot in one okay we'll start in the beginning shall we yeah so i started face painting kids i'm like my my sister used to come home from the market with her face painted and um i loved it and it was only when face painting first started here it was a lady called ria willering and then allison oh what was her name so allison mitchell back then but now she's She's like a fine artist now. She's with Hillsons Gallery. She married the famous, oh, freaking hell. Anyway, see, now you're going to get my menopause brain. So I'm going to be like, oh, what is the name? You'll find it easy. So anyway, so she was at the markets face painting. And Ria had taught her, I think, from memory. Forgive me if I'm incorrect, Alison, you need to listen to this. Okay, so yeah, and I was just like, I always wanted to do makeup. And I love the idea of that fantasy style. So I just started practicing with my assistant. So I taught myself face painting and then made money from it on the weekends. And then when I finished school... I studied makeup artistry under Bill Peacock, who's an amazing man. And he basically said, what you're doing in the face, why don't you do this all over? This was 19... 90? 1990. And back then, I think in the 80s, there'd been a little bit of body painting out there, like, you know, Elton John's I'm Still Standing. Oh, yeah. And then shortly after that, the Demi Moore cover came out of Vanity Fair where they painted on the suit. And I had started painting clothing on the body. That was the thing that I sort of always loved fashion. So I was like, well, what's close to the skin? That sort of created an illusion. So I painted lingerie on this girl for a competition. And I was working with a photographer who, Peter Lederman. Do you remember Peter?
Paul Atkins:No.
Emma Hack:Oh, my God. Okay, so that was back then. Yeah. And he would stay up all night, all night while I was body painting.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, because these
Emma Hack:sessions are like– We'd be shooting at 4 a.m. in the morning. These are
Paul Atkins:like five or six hours of
Emma Hack:makeup, right? No, no. It's like 15 hours, babes. Yeah, and, you know, I mean, there's things that have gone a full day. But I won't do that again. But, yeah, so he would just stay, like, you know, just hang out and do whatever he was doing while I was painting my models. And he actually photographed– the progress of my first body painting. So I've actually got that documented, which is just brilliant. No one
Paul Atkins:gets that.
Emma Hack:No one gets that,
Paul Atkins:right? No one has that, their
Emma Hack:first... I know, I've got so much old stuff from the beginning. I'm very blessed. So
Paul Atkins:was your family really encouraging for art?
Emma Hack:Yeah, so look, my family are very Christian and so this is quite difficult for them, I think, the nudity factor.
Paul Atkins:And are you... A question?
Emma Hack:Can we go into all that later? Because that's going to be like another whole great big tangent. Okay, cool. So revisit, put it in your notes. Revisit. Okay. Spirituality. Spirituality, yeah, revisit that. So yeah, otherwise we'll go off on like an extra tangent. We'll never get back to the real story of the guts of it. But yeah, so at that point I didn't really have a belief system, no. And I was very... I didn't like the trappings, I guess, of religion.
Paul Atkins:Having to get up Sunday morning.
Emma Hack:Yeah. Sunday school.
Paul Atkins:I
Emma Hack:know that feeling. Sunday school turned me off. It was just way too early. I do like a sleep in on a Sunday. Anyway. Sorry.
Paul Atkins:Back
Emma Hack:to the story. I'm so distracted. What are we talking about again?
Paul Atkins:Attention deficit disorder. Is that
Emma Hack:what it is? Yes. So, yeah, I think, yeah, it was fortunate to have all that sort of documented. Yeah, I actually lost where we were.
Paul Atkins:No, you were saying that the beginning with body painting and with this photographer working– like four in the morning where he waited for you to shoot yeah and you had he was photographing the first session that you had done a full body painting so you've got this this sort of progression of a of a person being fully painted
Emma Hack:yeah and the documentation of my first work as well which honestly like I look at it now and I probably although I changed the way I went around it and stuff there's a really beautiful application like I was good from the beginning so I know that sounds weird is that
Paul Atkins:the same style as what you do where you're blending like a camouflage thing or was
Emma Hack:that it's the same paint quality it's the same application I sketched underneath the last time. Now I just sort of work freehand, whatever feels right. But, yeah, I mean, I guess in technique the illusion of, which has always been interesting to me. So everything that I've done always has that illusion kind of– factor you know like in the 80s they had those magic eye yeah things and so I was always curious about that kind of stuff I love magic like I love magic I would love to work with a magician on creating something pretty amazing like on an installation level and maybe that will happen soon ish we can talk about that later too but yeah like yeah illusion is very big for me so I guess you know blending people into the walls that was 2005 so it was quite some years later and But it was just like a nice trajectory, I guess, of the illusion sort of based body painting I was doing.
Paul Atkins:Is it hard finding the right person to be the model?
Emma Hack:Well, in the beginning it was, yeah. Like, you know, people... Well, not many people want to strip off for you, do they? Or do they? Well, no. You know, mostly my friends, to be really honest with you. I had beautiful friends, fortunate for me. I work with models doing hair and makeup, so I was able to ask people. But a lot of the agencies back then were like sort of to their models, oh, don't do that for Emma because, you know, it's nudity. So it sort of sat in this nude realm. I've never
Paul Atkins:looked at your work and felt like it's not– the person's the canvas. It's not– You don't see the
Emma Hack:body bits. But this is the beginning. Yeah, right. Like, you know, people didn't know what I was going to do. I didn't know what I was going to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I was… Very mindful. I was a girl that was really shy about my body. So I was a girl that in the change rooms changed underneath my clothes. Like I didn't even show my bra to anyone. So I was very mindful in the beginning with the people that I was painting to be very respectful of how they would be feeling all the time because I sort of put them in my position of being quite shy and they'd be like, hey, just take their top off. I'd be like, oh, are you okay? Yeah, right, right. And they're like, no, no, it's fine. So, you know, it's– so I think part of– making the model feel really comfortable is super important, I think. You know, like there's so much that go into the psychology behind painting someone for so long, asking them to stand there. Like they're literally in pain when you're photographing them, but you can get this beautiful zen, gorgeous emotion from them. Like I talk them probably the last half an hour of painting, we talk through the pain. Like it's, like I guess there's some psychology in it that I just sort of picked up and just went with to try and, put them into a state in which they could move past the pain they were feeling and into some energy in which I could then photograph or capture.
Paul Atkins:So what the listeners might not understand is you're lining the people up. It's a perspective trick that's happening for the viewer, isn't it? So they can't really move much when you're
Emma Hack:painting? No, they can't. Okay, so that's the wallpaper. We'll talk about the wallpaper collection in this realm, okay, because most of my work isn't like this anymore. So the wallpaper work, basically you hang the wallpaper, you set up camera, you hang the wallpaper. This is quite often
Paul Atkins:Florence Brown. Broadhurst
Emma Hack:designs. Yeah, so I started painting with the Broadhurst designs and we can talk about how that came around as well because that was quite beautiful how that sort of happened. It was sort of the beginning of the Broadhurst sort of push, shall we say. So I sort of latched onto that at the right time. But, yeah, so what I do is hang wallpaper, the camera's set up, the model poses in front of the camera and we basically put a little bit of sticky around the top where the feet are, I line up where– like the sides of their arms are on their body so they can see the line of the paint. So they have to be perfectly precisely in that position. then I get them to roll their shoulders back and reset themselves, and that will be their reset each time, so their body, muscle memory kind of thing. Okay. Because as you stand, you actually, you know, we were talking about the discs of your dog earlier, but like, you know, your body compacts. Yes. So over 12 hours, you compact, like you don't actually, you can't get back into that same, exact same position. So everything lines up through camera. So I look through camera, I run over, paint a line or a dot, usually on top of the shoulders, and I run back, check it lines up, and keep on running back as it forwards to the, all the edges are done. And then I paint the interior it's
Paul Atkins:like a basketball game like the distances we're talking in and out in and out
Emma Hack:i know i should have actually counted my steps back in the beginning that would have been smart
Paul Atkins:well that's what the apple watch is for um so so how many how many of these sessions have you done just i'm just get
Emma Hack:hundreds no idea you know i've got about 200 pieces i've created i i exhibit everything i create and nothing ends up on the floor um so because it's just such a debacle doing it and even if it doesn't like completely work and it's not a favourite work somebody will love it but also it's part of like especially back in the day when you're creating 12 images to create a collection or something like that there will be the favourites there'll be the one favourite everyone wants and then there'll be like maybe five that sort of are buoyant around that and then you've got six that carry that and that's part of the story so for me
Paul Atkins:it's like an album like a of a band you know like you've got the singles that come off of a and then the supporting songs and then
Emma Hack:yeah so I sort of see them as part of the journey so yeah You know, the first piece actually is usually one of the best sellers because that's the hot idea I have, right? But from that piece, then I go, I never plan anything else a daggy. I really am. Hang on, hang on. What are you going to do? I don't know. I roll this and see how it feels.
Paul Atkins:You get your photographer and you get your model and how much do you know before you set
Emma Hack:up? Nothing. Like I just, you know, even like this, when I first started doing the wallpapers, I had David Solm shooting it for me. And he'd go, Heckey, what are you doing? And I said, I don't know, just whack it on the wall, we'll work it out. So I sort of have a general gist in my head. And back then I was creating two images in one. So, oh my God, I was like creating, I did sort of like, I sculpted the body out of it, like left bare bits of the body just to reshape the body because I was kind of, sick of always body painting to this one shape. I know that sounds weird, but human shape was boring to me at that point. Right. And so blending the edges out was part of the idea of the first series. But then I couldn't resist making characters because the Florence Broadhurst designs are so character driven, you know, like they're beautiful. And so like the first one, I think it's Japanese floral, it's called, and I turned her into a geisha. So it's two images in one, like, you know, nutcase that I am. And I said, oh, I'll just sketch on the background. And Dave's like, what are you doing? I said, I don't know. I'm just going to do this and see if it works. And it works. It's nice, you know.
Paul Atkins:How long did it take you to get– from, like, to be not– I mean, did you ever have to work with a plan in the beginning or were you just always just winging it from the beginning? Wow, that's amazing. You must be, like, just coursing through your veins. That just must be what you do.
Emma Hack:I just make everything up as I go. And, like, I always felt so insecure about being the artist that never studied or whatever. I just can't do it. Like, it just
Paul Atkins:–
Emma Hack:I find it, like– I never was great at studying and we talked about this really briefly before but I probably have like a variation of ADHD in a way. Like I look at now and I'm a C grade student. Emma doesn't focus on anything unless she really wants to do it. That was basically it. So for me creating art, I never finished anything. This is the only way I got to finish something is there's someone standing in front of me. I have to finish painting them, right? I can't get distracted and wander off and go and do whatever. So I've actually found a tool in which I can actually do stuff in life because yeah I'm fluffy fluffy I'm gonna say it fucking fluffy as fuck
Paul Atkins:yeah that's really cool yeah the fact that you've found a hack
Emma Hack:to make it work like that you've
Paul Atkins:gone okay I've got someone who I respect in front of me I've got a photographer I'm paying yeah not a lot I'm paying and I want to do something cool I have to
Emma Hack:seriously I've been thinking about doing a collection for four years I have not done a collection for four years Paul really how do you
Paul Atkins:feel
Emma Hack:The same way I felt four years ago. No, no, no,
Paul Atkins:but are you like
Emma Hack:– I've had this idea
Paul Atkins:for so long. Yeah, but did you stop because you were burnt out at that stage?
Emma Hack:No, I've stopped because I haven't had the money to create. So, yeah, that's really the main thing is like I left my husband and so you just don't– as a– I can't get a job. Like, I can't get a fucking job. Yeah, no,
Paul Atkins:no one's going to give
Emma Hack:you a job. No, no, but this is the thing. Like, you talk to people that have, like, been well-known in the past and really, like, no one's going to give me a job because I'm not going to be reliably staying there. And in the honest truth, I probably won't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it would have been nice, you know, just for a couple of years to help me out. That's tough. So,
Paul Atkins:yeah. That's tough. So you've always got to be a self-employed, self-made whatever it
Emma Hack:is. Yeah. So this is why I went into all the other stuff that I've gone into, you know, which I love and it's part of who I am now. Yeah. I really truly believe that I needed that shake up. So I do tarot now. Sorry,
Paul Atkins:there's the separation, the leaving of your husband, that didn't disrupt your art at all? Yes,
Emma Hack:it did. Of course it did. My identity was completely tied up with my art and my relationship. Right,
Paul Atkins:right.
Emma Hack:And that's also part of it. Then COVID as well on top of it. Yeah. So, yeah, there was a lot of hardship, I think, you know, during that stage and just trying to relearn who I was and– You know, you come out of relationships quite broken. So, you know, just trying to... not fix but just evolve myself now from that so i mean as i said as i was going to say like i do tarot now and the card that would relate to this moment is the tower card right and the tower card you see the tower it's been hit by lightning and be thrown out of the tower but you've got these little yods around you right there's little yellow dots and they're gifts from god and it's like basically this has been shaken up to make you who you are meant to be now you know like who i was in the past was quite materialistic i didn't appreciate i didn't have gratitude like fucking throw me out of the tower, like, you know, let's see if you sink or swim. And so I've swum, I've kept my head above water, but I'm about to, like, I'm just about to hit the trajectory of being better than I was before because of what's going on, you know.
Paul Atkins:And that emotional mess, did it make you want to make art or did it just stop you and you just needed a
Emma Hack:break? I was over it anyway. So, like, I was saying over it, like, that's a... I was selling my work. You know? I was going every six weeks. I was going and doing another art fair around the world. I was escaping my relationship in which I was in. I was completely detached from everything and the creating side of it. I was just creating to create. I created a collection in 2021. as a response to COVID, which I really love. But there were two artworks. That's all I could afford to do at that point. And I created two works. We showed them at the Hilton and it was the same weekend that we had the shutdown where we only had 20 people. But because the ballrooms were there, we opened all the ballrooms up. We had 150 people there that weekend. It was just such a blessing. That was amazing. Yeah, did you come? Were you there? Yeah, it was just– it was a very emotional night, also for me because it was sort of– and then after that, I've just– my next collection, I want to do it big, you know, like I don't want to sit back. And the problem with that is it's just, I guess, the funding for it, you know.
Paul Atkins:Now, you've done a couple of absolutely massive things, like Madame Hanoi's– like that's a multi-storey artwork.
Emma Hack:Yeah, she's like eight metres tall.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, it's insane. And how much involvement did you have with it? Because this is a cafe restaurant we're talking about.
Emma Hack:Yeah, sure.
Paul Atkins:Did you style the entire place as well?
Emma Hack:Yeah, no. Okay, so obviously they had a designer come in and design the chairs and all that kind of stuff. So I had this wall to design. And then I designed all the artworks that were going to go around the wall and what they looked like, I guess, and the frames that they were in. Because it was so beautiful. Yeah, and we did this beautiful salon hang. So eclectic
Paul Atkins:too.
Emma Hack:Yeah, I went to Hanoi and like– because I was going– I think I– God, I can't remember the trip. I think I'd been to South Korea and exhibiting there and I thought I'll go back through– I'll be able to go back through Hanoi and pick up some stuff. So I went and found some antique stuff from there and then found a whole lot of other stuff online in America from– South Korea for, yeah, just random stuff, like really beautiful antique-y kind of things. So, yeah, that was such a pleasure to work on. And I love Nick. Like, he's an amazing man.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, the guy that styled
Emma Hack:the place. Oh, no, he's the chef. He's the chef owner, yeah. Oh, that's incredible. The guy
Paul Atkins:said he owns it, but,
Emma Hack:you know.
Paul Atkins:But it's like it was a hero piece.
Emma Hack:Yeah, I still love it. You know, like there's some artworks you create in your life that you just wouldn't change. Oh, no, I'd make– I would make the dragon fatter because I didn't know enough about– the dragon had to be fat. It looks a bit like a snake apparently. Oh, no, I'd been in Taipei. So I'd been in Taipei and I showed my– Yeah, I showed my gallerist and she goes, oh, that's– she goes, oh, your dragon, it looks like a snake. That's not so good. I'm like, what? And she goes, yes, it's too skinny. It needs to be fat. You need a fat dragon. So don't look at it and think that it needs to be a fat dragon, but I do.
Paul Atkins:That's so cute. That's so cute.
Emma Hack:Yeah, but the body painting of it is just beautiful. It's so magic.
Paul Atkins:Yeah. So the– like that's a– you get a commission like that. It's someone says, I love your style. I need to do what? I need your stuff on our wall. And it's still there.
Emma Hack:Yeah, it's really relevant still. It's still relevant. It's
Paul Atkins:amazing. And I think in our cultural environment where we have, you know, Hanoi and Vietnam, such a big part of Adelaide and the people that have moved here, I think it connects beautifully. And it's particularly in Sky City, you know, with the casino and it's a high and beautiful place. So what other big projects have you tackled?
Emma Hack:Well, of course I did the Gautier thing, which now seems to be having another resurgence, which is really quite magical and weird. So go on back.
Paul Atkins:Molly Gautier
Emma Hack:is somebody I used to know. Yeah, so I created the visual elements of somebody that I used to know. So basically I had been contacted to create– they basically looked up paint someone into a wall. Natasha Pincus, the producer, and she– like I came up, you know, obviously in Google first and nice and close to Melbourne. So she just rang me and I was in, I was so busy. I remember just saying, nah, I don't have time for it. And see, I was an asshole. And I was just like, nah, and you know, whatever, you know, like just didn't give it the time to breathe of what I was actually being offered at that moment. But luckily she chased me. And I was in Bali with my friends and, you know, she's like, I'm going to get Wally to call you now. And so Wally called me and I chatted to him. He's so sweet and lovely, of course. And then he goes, I'm going to send you a couple of songs that I've done before. And he sent me Your Heart's a Mess. And, of course, I was like, oh, for fuck's sake, that one. Yeah, okay, I'll do it, right? You go, huh? Yeah, no, I love that song. It's so beautiful. I'm looking like that with
Paul Atkins:music. I don't always connect with the artist
Emma Hack:with a song. Yeah, no, I never. I never. I'm just hopeless with that. I know other words, but I won't know the artist. Yeah. Anyway, so that song's beautiful. And I was like, okay, yeah, I'll do it. So that's sort of how that came about. And then originally they were wanting me to create the painting for the background. But I sort of like go back into the marketing. Like I've sort of always been advertising, I guess, on styling and stuff like that with hair and makeup work. So I was sort of like, well, hang on. It's a release before the album. What's the album cover? And he goes, oh, the album cover's from my dad's art. And I said, okay, cool. Let's have a look at it. And it was all that geometric stuff. Oh, right. And I said, well, let's do this, you know. And so we started thinking about– we were all talking about how this background, they're part of it and she moves away and so we want a different colour for her to him. So they were still their own entities but they were part of this relationship together and then she walks away and leaves him, which is when she's painted backwards. So, yeah, so like it's– honestly– There were so many things that happened with that. It's a story in itself that could go on for an hour with all the little things that actually happened. On a social media level, though, however, it was the precipice. It was like that beginning of the memes and everybody
Paul Atkins:doing... 2011,
Emma Hack:2012. 2011, 2012, yeah. And then it did 12 weeks. We had
Paul Atkins:iPhones for a couple of years before that, so really
Emma Hack:it was huge. Yeah, people were dressing up and painting themselves like it and it sort of, it actually started from, I think there's seven or, I can't remember, seven or nine guys that sit around a guitar in Canada and they sing a song, like recreate a song, but they're all together like strumming this guitar and they're quite well known at the time and people followed them and so they did this song and that's actually how it kicked off.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, right.
Emma Hack:Yeah, from them. And then people just started dressing up and recreating it. And it was just like, what the hell? And so that hasn't happened again. You know, like when you look at it. You can't make that. This is a moment in time. It's like crazy ass. So all those little things and all those. But to be quite honest with you, I couldn't actually watch the clip for about eight months.
Paul Atkins:Really? Yeah.
Emma Hack:Yeah, it's like giving birth. I didn't want to see it.
Paul Atkins:Yeah,
Emma Hack:yeah, it was too much. Yeah, yeah, it was a heavy day. It was 24 hours straight. I hadn't slept and it was very emotionally draining for everybody involved. So, yeah, it was hard. And
Paul Atkins:what did it do for you as an artist and as a business person?
Emma Hack:Well, I was able to use it more as a tool, I guess. So at that point I had just signed up with Rebecca Hossack Gallery in New York and she was like, I'll put you in some group shows, blah, blah, blah, and it was all a bit wafty and la-la. But then when the Gaultier thing got number one, I'm like, now you do solos for me right now. So we were able to sort of peg on that and then use it advertising for the press and rah, rah, rah. So that side of it helped. I've never been asked to do it again, like that work again. So I actually don't know what work has come out of it because I just went straight into my art career. I wasn't doing so much live work or advertising then. I sort of...
Paul Atkins:So hang on, tell us what live work is.
Emma Hack:Oh, like, you know, create an installation in front of people or an event or whatever. So it's a
Paul Atkins:performance, I suppose.
Emma Hack:Yeah, so I was doing a lot of that through the early 2000s. Like I was travelling to Dubai, China, Hong Kong, Canada. America, doing launches for like, you know, Mont Blanc or Paz Paley Pearls, a lot of fancies. Are
Paul Atkins:you putting in, like in Dubai, a naked person, are you painting a naked person?
Emma Hack:Oh, you're painting over things, you know, you work within the culture you're in, you know. Yeah, of course. So, yeah, yeah, be appropriate.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, of course. So, it probably gave you that performance work, do you think? Perhaps that's what came from it or...?
Emma Hack:No, the performance work came first. Oh, it was before that. And Gautier came afterwards.
Paul Atkins:Right.
Emma Hack:Yeah, but I'd always wanted to... Well, actually, I had already created a stop-motion video clip for the Audrey's, actually. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so I created a piece where this sort of triffidy flower thing takes over her body. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and she's like, yeah, she's on the bed. I can't remember the name of the song. I'll find it. Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. We'll put it in the show notes, yeah. But anyway, yeah, so that was my first one. But yeah, I'd always been fascinated. I'd like, you know, worked with Anna Fex and Michael Cusack and Darren Burgess and I just– adored animation. Like I've wanted to do animation with body painting. And so when this came, I was like, well, I get one chance to make this hot. Is it this job? And that's why I said no. And then I did it. And then, you know, obviously I did get that one chance and I won't probably do it again. You know, where do you go? You can't, you can't. I know.
Paul Atkins:I think the artist would look at it saying, well, you're just doing a. You know, like the songwriter, the performer would say, oh, you're just doing what Wally did sort of thing. And so you've got to– it has to be completely different, wouldn't it?
Emma Hack:Yeah. I'm actually looking at sort of recreating a lot of that kind of animation work with AI now. So– It's a whole other discussion for later as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going to AI. But yeah, like I'm curious as to how I can play with the animation values because–
Paul Atkins:Can I ask, do you feel threatened by AI
Emma Hack:at all as an artist? No, no, no. I want to use it as a tool. Like be smart about it. Like of course, you know, keep an insular and do the right thing by yourself. Don't put it out into the ether of everything. Surely your work's been cheated on by it.
Paul Atkins:Surely your work's been cheated on by it.
Emma Hack:But the thing is, why be scared? So for me, actually, I read something today that did change my mind a little bit about it. So basically, if you've created work in the past and it's out there on the internet, it's out there for everybody to consume and do whatever with it. You really can't control everything. All you can do is just keep on moving forward and creating new work so you don't go backwards. You're just moving forwards the whole time. If people were using things things or copying things or whatever the thing is as far as the body painting community is like if people copy my work they get called out like there's a we call it the body body painting family. It's really strong. So all around the world, we support each other. If we see somebody else using somebody else's work, it's like credit that artist, do the right thing. But I know that kids learning makeup or body painting at school are creating my work. Of course they are because they're inspired by it. As far as AI is concerned, AI can't create what's in my brain because my brain is my brain. What it can do is manipulate what I've created in the past. The thing that I read this morning, though, is of most concern is that that is a human in my work that is then being copied and used without their consent.
Paul Atkins:Their likeness, yes, right. Right?
Emma Hack:So part of this now, if I want to work with AI in my closed land of Emma, then I need to also have the okay for the model because one artist was saying, okay, I've seen models in my work doing things that they never did in my photo shoot or in my recordings. And it's not what the work's about.
Paul Atkins:Yes.
Emma Hack:And they're now moving and creating all these weird poses and stuff. But it's in their likeness.
Paul Atkins:Do you think the models... Because in some ways they're often being pushed around. I'm not suggesting by you, but they don't often get the great end of the stick, particularly except for the really high-end ones. Do you think... they are many stakes going to be the victims for this and therefore they're just going to sign whatever you say so that they just get the work still. Like it's, I mean, they're putting themselves out there.
Emma Hack:Well, my mothers are all my friends. So the whole, like, and now, like, with the work that I'm doing on the human element is very consensual and setting boundaries and consent with everything. So... It is a full disclosure discussion before we even sit down and say, well, I'm going to paint on them. Are you comfortable with this now? Because this is where all this is going. Yeah, you've got to say, you're likely to turn it. Do we cut the face off? Do we just see lips? Are there things? Do we just use the body? What do we do? A collaboration. Yeah, because there always is a collaboration. They're my muse. There's always a collaboration, like whether– I'm just talking things through with them while I'm, you know how I say, I just like make it up as I go. Well, I do make it up as I go, but I'm always talking about going, oh, I'm thinking about doing this. I'm like, oh, that might sound nice to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's always a little discussion. There's banter, you know. I'm like, oh, what if I do this? Yeah, yeah, that would be cool. So it turns into something from somebody there anyway and it depends on their energy on the day. Like it changes so many things. Like the painting would be completely different another day, right?
Paul Atkins:Yeah.
Emma Hack:That's the whole thing.
Paul Atkins:That's right. And it's not that moment. It's why it's unique because it's that moment when you're with that person and the photographer, whoever else is in the room, whatever's playing in the music, excuse the dings, whatever playing in the music is going to be that sort of stuff that's going to trigger the event that is the creation at that moment.
Emma Hack:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And definitely music playing in the background as well. Yeah, everything.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Emma Hack:It never would be recreated the same way. I mean, like even you've got a piece over here with the flowers, you know, like I just sort of throw them in where it feels right. Like, you know, who's to know how I feel the next day? Yeah. I might feel more red than pink. Who knows? I might go, oh, those pink flowers suck. Let's not use them today.
Paul Atkins:The blue of that's amazing.
Emma Hack:Mm.
Paul Atkins:And I think that's why I find that piece like it just doesn't leave my eyesight. It's
Emma Hack:always somewhere in the corner. It's gorgeous. I love it.
Paul Atkins:It is lovely. That's
Emma Hack:Bloom as well, by the way. That's part of the Bloom.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, and where was Bloom shown? Was that in your gallery in North Adelaide?
Emma Hack:It was a gallery in the city when I had the art bar. Okay, so you had a
Paul Atkins:bar.
Emma Hack:Look, this is the scatty brain stuff. Yeah, I had a bar. So I had a gallery. That was in North Adelaide.
Paul Atkins:You had a North Adelaide gallery. Yeah. For those who are not in Adelaide, it's kind of a nice fancy area. Yeah, it's a nice area. And when you go down there, there's all these nice shops, a beautiful gelatery next door and all that
Emma Hack:kind of– It's a really nice community. I ended up bloody doing 10 million things for the community there.
Paul Atkins:Collaborations, right? Oh, yeah, exactly. And you did it on the fence as well across
Emma Hack:the road? Oh, yeah, I did it all. It was stupid. I spent so much time. But anyway, but it was good and I was travelling a little bit. I had Bec, my model, she was working there, which is fantastic. Do you type that as
Paul Atkins:brand building, all that stuff? other stuff around
Emma Hack:it I do now looking back on it yeah it was a real strong
Paul Atkins:because you weren't getting paid for every all those little things you did you were just doing yeah
Emma Hack:but I was like a whirlwind you know how like you were saying before you never get as much done as you used to get done like when you were younger well I don't even know. I look back on that. I mean, even I had to clean up my Instagram, right? My new manager, she goes, clean up the Instagram, get rid of all this old shit. So I had to go back to the beginning of Instagram because I actually signed up right at the beginning. I think 2014 or something. I can't remember. Anyway, went back and that was all the gallery stuff. I had to remove it. It was really quite difficult emotionally because it's like that's part of my journey, right?
Paul Atkins:Yeah.
Emma Hack:But anyway, no, we're cleaning up. We're cleaning up shop.
Paul Atkins:Right.
Emma Hack:So just keep it streamlined now, you know. No one needs to, no one sees that anyway. But yeah, all that stuff, all the North Adelaide stuff was in there doing this, that and the other. And I thought, how was I doing this? Well, next day I was over in Taipei and then I was here and,
Paul Atkins:you know, like it was funny. And there was a big launch, that gallery. Yeah, it was fun. And like the toilet was, like you look up
Emma Hack:and the toilet was. Oh, hang on. Now we're in the art bar. Yeah. Oh, now we're in the art bar. That was such a, yeah, the toilet and art bar.
Paul Atkins:So you moved to the, you bought a bar after. Yeah,
Emma Hack:so the whole idea with that was to nurture other artists' work, but because I'm not really super great at organising stuff, for me it felt like I couldn't. It didn't work as well. How
Paul Atkins:long were you there for? It was over a year, wasn't
Emma Hack:it? No, I was there for eight months.
Paul Atkins:Eight months.
Emma Hack:Yeah, because it was part of the Renew Adelaide. So I didn't have to pay rent, but I did set up the whole place. And you had a licence and you did a lot of stuff. Yeah, there was costs, definitely costs in doing it. And so... When I had the gallery in North Adelaide, which is go back, I had the art prize. Ah, the Emma Hack
Paul Atkins:art
Emma Hack:prize. Yeah, so I did five years of my art prize. That was amazing.
Paul Atkins:And then
Emma Hack:gathered this whole group of people that had all been finalists. So I thought, well, it would be great to do an art bar and support the artists and they can come in and meet and blah, blah, blah. But no one really, like it's just, I mean, for me, I think it was just the area and the way it was just hard to park. Yeah. And I thought maybe. But
Paul Atkins:also being open. All the time. Well, I was working in the bar. Yeah, I know. I was working in the bar. Oh, I
Emma Hack:wasn't making art. I was working in the bar. I know. That's fucking ridiculous. That's stupid. I was earning 20 bucks an hour and I could have been earning, like, you know, I need to work. So I got to the end of it. I was like, that's nice. And then I thought, well, you know what? Like, the bar was going well. I didn't want to do it. Because it was the bottom of it. Don't be about the art, buy art on the walls and have a drink while you're there. Instead, it was like, drink and get trashed. And then also, I was... like in a relationship with someone that drank a lot. So it was very triggering. And I was just like, I just had to get out of the alcohol zone. So that was also part of it, you know. So that side of it. Yes. For my mental stability, definitely. That's 2018. So, yeah.
Paul Atkins:Yeah. So from that, you know what we haven't actually mentioned?
Emma Hack:What?
Paul Atkins:is what you actually sell. We talked about your performances. So you do–
Emma Hack:So I sell my performances. You do performances, yeah. So people
Paul Atkins:pay for you to go and do a public painting of someone and it's a spectacle.
Emma Hack:Yeah.
Paul Atkins:How do you feel in front of the crowd doing all that sort of stuff?
Emma Hack:That's fine. I think it comes from the face painting kids. You know, everyone's– the pressure actually of face painting kids is a lot more than that because they've got a whole line and the parents are like, hurry up. Oh, gross. And they're like, the kids are gross and freaking in their faces. Parents are the worst. And, you know, like, and then the kids are moving all over the shop. So you've got minimal time. You've got to create great, great effect. Yeah. And then you've got a line-up of 20 kids with all their parents and everybody's waiting. And that's an hour, like, it's over an hour line. That's an hour and a half line. So, you know, the parents are pretty crappy by the time they get to you. I just say, like, this is an hour and a half. Just listen. They're like, no, you'll get it done early. I'm like, no, I cannot. It's not possible physically. But anyway, so when I paint live for people, it's so easy.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, yeah. So let's go to the other– what else you sell. So you have a photographer that captures these pieces that once you've
Emma Hack:made them. I started creating– I captured my own pieces from 2008.
Paul Atkins:Right.
Emma Hack:Yeah. So I started photographing my own work from 2008. Oh,
Paul Atkins:wow. That's like full-on both– Taking the photographs.
Emma Hack:So, yeah. I know why you
Paul Atkins:gave that up and got someone else because, you know, just being the make-up.
Emma Hack:Well, this is the problem. Like, I wasn't being picked up by galleries because they're like, well, you're not the photographer. So, the photographer... So, that's complicated. And then also the photographer owns the rights. Ugh. Okay, you get into that, right? Don't even get into that. Luckily, I work with people I trust and love and still do.
Paul Atkins:But can't you just contract that around saying, no...
Emma Hack:Technically, no. You know this. Come on. If someone wanted to be a real asshole, they could be a real asshole. You've always worked with
Paul Atkins:really lovely people.
Emma Hack:I have, and they're fantastic. I adore them all. But it was actually Andrew Dunbar, and he's just like, fuck this. What the hell are you doing? He goes... So I came in to do one of my paintings and it was the Redbird one actually, one of my most famous works. Oh, yes. And it was around Christmas time and I walked in the door and he goes, I'm going to show you how to do this yourself now. This is ridiculous. He goes, there's no way that you should be having other people photograph your work. I'm not fucking photographing this. And he just showed me how to do it. He goes, this is just the same fucking set-up, Emma, every time. Right, right. But, you know, like, for me, I have to say my eyes are fatigued. Like, when you look through a camera and then you're going close and looking up close, like, for hours and hours and hours, like, and then to pull your eyes back after 12 hours of painting up close. Yeah, yeah. I actually really struggle refocusing myself. So I think... So I have an assistant. He's Darren Clements. He's my trusted man. I haven't seen him for four years. I haven't seen him
Paul Atkins:for a bit either.
Emma Hack:I think he's okay. I hope so too because we're going to be enlisting him soon. But, yeah, no. So I think, you know, having someone trusted in your realm. So, yeah, he sets everything up while I'm working. So, look, full disclosure, you know, I don't really know much about photography but I know how to make somebody look beautiful for me and that's all that really matters. I don't claim to be a photographer. photographer. I'm a mixed medium, multimedia artist. I'm not, I don't even own a camera. I have like my iPhone. So, and to me in the beginning, this was quite difficult because I worked with the purists, you know, I worked with the guys that, you know, Darren Santofanti is like, you know, so anal about how everything he does with his shooting. And so for me, it was very difficult for me to go now I'm photographing my work because I I'm certainly not a purist about photography. You would have had that look like your mind bothering you. Yeah, it was fuck with your head, man. So, like, you know, who am I to come in after working with these amazing photographers, like, doing hair and make-up over these years. They've pushed me and been part of my portfolio and then just to go, oh, well, I'm just going to click here now, you know. Like, it was a real– it still is a bit of a head fuck, to be really honest with you. But I think nowadays, like, people are so much more now. Like, back then– You know, I guess the galleries wanted to pigeonhole you. You were a painter, you were a photographer. You couldn't be a painter and a photographer. Like I was a painter but then my work was photography so they enlisted me under photography as a photographer. So when I photographed my first pieces in 2008, I was actually then picked up by a gallery. Right. And that's how it all happened. My work was selling, you know. They were just waiting for a nin to be able to sort of, I guess, pigeonhole me. Yeah. So that
Paul Atkins:finished work that you've photographed, that's what you then make additions of, and then that's what people collect. Correct. And you do different sizes and finishes. And I remember you went through a period where you were stitching, you were gold leaf work. You've done everything to make it something beautiful. To
Emma Hack:try and change it as well, you know, like not just get caught into just creating the same thing every time.
Paul Atkins:Was that about keeping you excited and interested
Emma Hack:in it? Yeah, and that was done in my gallery in North Adelaide. So that was really a live space. Like I had my studio at the back, so I was always creating. I had someone working the front, so selling the artwork, so I didn't have to worry about the bullshit. Yeah, Bec's great. She's awesome. Yeah, so she's my sister-in-law now as well. as my first piece. You arranged that one. I don't know. Like I was like, really, you guys want to do this? But anyway, they did and they're still together, so that's good. That's awesome. It works out well. But yeah, it was just a really good vibe, you know. And during that stage, yes, I wanted to try a whole lot of other ways of working. And I've created that beautiful collection, you know, with you guys. Oh, yeah, that's amazing. Doing the wallpaper, I mean. That was hot, wasn't it?
Paul Atkins:That was amazing. And the wallpaper background and the layers. The Gen Z. It was Gen Z. Yeah, that's right.
Emma Hack:Less Gen Z. They're not doing half of what I predicted they would do in that exhibition, but anyway.
Paul Atkins:They've got to save the world still. They've got a bit more
Emma Hack:time. Hurry up. Hurry up.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, but it's not over yet.
Emma Hack:No. Yeah,
Paul Atkins:yeah. So with that additional, like, that was satisfying your desire to keep yourself interested by, you know, trying different things with your work, trying to create a different finished item rather than just the prints, which you'd been... and the framed editions which had been sold. So you were trying to then up that a little bit more to do something slightly different. And you kind of, you worked through that, did you? And you're like, oh, I've done with that. Now I'm going to do something else.
Emma Hack:Well, no one buys it. This is the problem. So everyone just buys what they know you to do, like the stage staff or what they've seen before. Is that a rut you
Paul Atkins:found or do you feel it as a bit of a rut or is it a?
Emma Hack:Oh, of course. It's horrible because, you know, you're an artist. You're creating and, like, people aren't buying it. So– and also, like, the expense. Like, that exhibition cost me about probably $30,000 to put together, right? Easy. That's fucking massive, even with lovely sponsorship awards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, like, on that level and then not selling it. Yeah. You know, even every frame was, like, $2,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it's crazy. So– Yeah, but I had the freedom of cash at that time because my overseas, I had galleries all representing me overseas and things were selling, you know, a few pieces a weekly kind of thing. So, you know, I mean at one point I think honestly I had about a $3 million art business but I was earning 20% of it. Yeah. And that's when I pulled out. Yeah. Pulled out all the galleries and went out alone. It's not making sense in that world. Oh, it's silly. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, I didn't want to be producing as much. I wanted to pull everything back. I could still earn the same amount of money, but doing less. And it keeps
Paul Atkins:you exclusive too with your work.
Emma Hack:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, obviously there's still pieces available from back in those days and stuff like that. Please have a look at them online, everybody. But, you know, like I think... It was just becoming a bit bigger than Ben-Hur and I was just doing this whole, just all the production of everything. I mean, it was good for you because
Paul Atkins:I was printing everything with you. Yeah, yeah, we were seeing you. You were in here twice a week signing. Yeah, it was nuts. Yeah, that production was nuts. I mean, look, we've seen people go through cycles like this but I've got to say that I don't have any client that is consistent as you over the years, whether it be times where it's really busy but you're always doing something. Yes. You just can't shake it. You keep making work.
Emma Hack:Well, I have to. It's how I make money. So what else are you doing? You're doing other things. Yes, I'm doing other things. What else are
Paul Atkins:you doing?
Emma Hack:I'm going back to my art now. I'm like, not resentfully, but like I'm respectfully going back to my art now. So, okay. So in 2020, I was doing all the art fairs. It was actually the beginning before COVID. And I just created a collection called Be Still. And if you read the poetry of that, pop in a link.
Paul Atkins:Yep.
Emma Hack:That is how I felt. Everything needed to be still. And it was about the world being still. Now, you could call that a little bit of a hip prediction maybe, but it is what it is. Like, I look at it now and I'm like, fuck, you know, that's actually what happened. So, but in saying that, that's intuition. That's intuitive stuff. And that's what I'm working with now. So, I started actually doing dog training because... I started thinking, what makes me happy? And my dogs made me happy. And being around other dogs made me happy. So I was like, and I was just fascinated. I go down these wormholes of training because my dog, my first dog, Hildy, was actually quite, there's a lot going on with her body-wise, but we were unaware of that at the time. So I did 100 courses to find out what was actually wrong with my dog because no one listened to me. And then I found out and I was like, I want to help other people. So I started training dogs. And I worked with, this has got nothing to do with photography. And then I went to a place called CBS and they do, for two years, they train you up to be a dog trainer and you just volunteer every Monday night and you can run classes. And so you practice, you know, and with dogs all the time. I loved it. And then I started working with another couple of dog training businesses and at the same time then I studied and trained to do dog training because back then I couldn't body paint anyway because COVID was not allowing me to touch people anyway. So this is fantastic. And then all the top dog trainers around the world went all online. But there's a whole lot of dog trainers doing a lot of holistic work, like working with the sentient being of the dog rather than I'll just train the fuck out of you because I can. So I sort of went on that realm. There's two different types of dog trainers. You have the aversive trainers and then you have your positive reinforcement trainers. So for me, I was heavy positive reinforcement, ready to fight it out with the fuckers, basically, that do adversive training. Adversive training is basically you do this or else, you have no choice, right? It's like I'm going to take you to stand here, basically. They learn by trying to avoid something.
Paul Atkins:Like carrot and the stick, that's the stick. You're the carrot.
Emma Hack:No. No, no, this is like I'll hurt you until you stop doing
Paul Atkins:it. Ouch.
Emma Hack:Okay? So this is all like shock jocks, you know, shock training and stuff. Anyway, so I went the opposite way but also added on that a whole lot of sentient kind of stuff. So I work now very much with breath work with dogs. Hang on, so this is spiritual? I'm doing all this crazy ass shit.
Paul Atkins:Is this a spiritual
Emma Hack:side of it? So now I've gone into my spiritual stuff. I'm now working with that with the dogs. So how this came about, I set up a dog business with my gallery next to it and this– Honestly, this business, every business I set up, it's gone well. From the get-go, people didn't even want to walk in the door of that business, right? It was weird, right? I couldn't work it out. I had actually, the front door I ended up closing and had the side door open so people would actually walk into the place. And I was like, what the heck is going on here? So then we had like, oh my God, you're going to get this story. It's like random and people are going to think I'm crazy.
Paul Atkins:We all are crazy, Emma. It's
Emma Hack:fine. So I had this event, like a free event where we had dog communicator. Actually, one of my models is now dog communicator. So she's in doing a course. And we did this meditation where once we had to imagine moving into the other rooms of the actual building and then out the front. And we opened our eyes and one of the people there, basically her face was white. And I said, what? Are you okay? And she goes, actually, I'm not okay. When I moved into the other room behind us, there was this scream, right? And I'm like...
Paul Atkins:Blimey.
Emma Hack:Okay. And she goes, something's trapped in there. Anyway, so whatever. Whether you believe it or not, but basically there's a negative energy there. I had someone come in and clear that. And she looked at me and she goes, are you talking to the dogs? And I'm like, yes, but don't tell the owners because they don't believe in it. And she's like, what you're doing with the dogs, you're actually meant to be doing with humans.
Paul Atkins:Right.
Emma Hack:Right? So... The business fell over because it was just like, honestly, that was just so bad juju there. And what the, oh my God. So the psychologist that looked after me after my breakup, she runs Tarot. And I never asked her to do Tarot for me at all. But when the course finished, when I finished my business, there was a course for Tarot. And I thought, I'll just do it for fun. So I had a big dip of money because of what had happened with the business. So I went in to start doing this course and she goes, Emma, you should just start doing this. Just offer it online and see what people say. Just do it for a donation. You're learning. So I started doing it and I was getting 20 readings a week, Paul.
Paul Atkins:Blimey.
Emma Hack:Yeah, and it just went bang. And it's what I'm meant to be doing. You know, when you're meant to be doing something, it comes easy.
Paul Atkins:Yeah,
Emma Hack:yeah. Same thing with the art. Everything just flowed. Like honestly, like I was, you could say kissed on the dick by a fairy basically, you know. Like seriously, everything I did, you couldn't touch me. Yeah. And then when you start hitting your head against a brick wall, that's the wrong way. You're meant to be going the other way.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, that's so interesting.
Emma Hack:Yeah. So that's when the tarot stuff sort of came in. Yep. All the animal behaviour stuff I'd learnt. So it crosses over. We are animals, right? So our patterns of behaviour, how we learn, is exactly the same as dogs.
Paul Atkins:Yes.
Emma Hack:So I'm able to use the dog training through Into My Tarot, which Tarot is very much about patterns, looking after yourself, a lot about chakra healing in there. It's not scary. Like, you know, the devil card is not about the devil, you know. So in the past… I think the
Paul Atkins:devil's a bit overrated as a scary thing at any rate. I think… I mean, all that stuff seems awfully manufactured to keep people into line, you know?
Emma Hack:Well, yeah. Do you want to get into religion now?
Paul Atkins:Yeah,
Emma Hack:let's do it. Let's go. We've
Paul Atkins:got 15 minutes.
Emma Hack:15 minutes for religion. Let's go. We haven't hit politics yet. Fucking hell. Politics
Paul Atkins:is really easy these days.
Emma Hack:Well, religion sits in this conversation. So I'm going to talk about it. All right. So... I always knew. I had imaginary friends when I was young. I always knew what was happening. I knew what was happening also in my relationship, but I was ghastly and told it was wrong. But it was fucking right. I wasn't stupid, all right? So the way I see everything is this is intuition. Your intuition is your first four seconds of thought. It's what you use, like, effortlessly. After that is ego, all right? So when I read cards, I read intuitively. Blah, blah, blah, blah,
Paul Atkins:blah. So I have some cognitive distortions, right? So what that means is something's happening and I take it the wrong way. And so my intuition is quite often that first four seconds can be wrong because I'm afraid of something or whatever and I need to sit with it for a little bit longer and then go, oh, no, that's not what's happening. I've got this connection that's happening between– how I'm feeling and what my brain's thinking is actually happening and it's not actually that at all.
Emma Hack:Is that a diagnosed thing or what is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, gotcha. All right. Well, you recognise that. That's good. I
Paul Atkins:do, but it's my concern about intuition as a thing.
Emma Hack:Sure.
Paul Atkins:I'm not being sceptical. I'm just saying for me.
Emma Hack:Yeah, it works for me. I'm right. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm really fucking right. I know my
Paul Atkins:wife, Kate, she's amazing. She's right every, like, she knows what she's doing.
Emma Hack:I think if you have... a diagnosis, not to use your intuition, then let's not do it. How does that sound?
Paul Atkins:Good.
Emma Hack:Does that work for
Paul Atkins:you? It works fine.
Emma Hack:All right, good. So for me it works, right? Yeah. It works really well. If I overthink things, it's really the wrong thing.
Paul Atkins:Yeah.
Emma Hack:So we just go straight back into it. Oh, me too. I
Paul Atkins:can't overthink. There's a little gap in the middle where I can actually
Emma Hack:get the truth. Oh, you have six seconds instead of four.
Paul Atkins:Because then I overthink it, then I think myself into a
Emma Hack:mess. So your limbic system gets engaged first. Correct. And then you make a decision based on limbic reaction to something. Yeah. So is that a learnt thing or is that?
Paul Atkins:Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's an old, old, old thing.
Emma Hack:So is it a diagnosis or is that just a learnt behaviour to go straight into fight or flight?
Paul Atkins:Well, I think the fight or flight thing's a response to the situation, but I think it's a learnt behaviour from... I don't know. It's a thing of childhood. I'm curious about it. We'll talk about that later. We can. This is about you. It's not about
Emma Hack:me. No, no, no. This is how much I love it. I love human behaviour. It's
Paul Atkins:fascinating.
Emma Hack:Yeah, it just really completely is. So, yeah. So, I don't know. Where were we? What were we talking about? Oh,
Paul Atkins:God.
Emma Hack:Rewind.
Paul Atkins:Spirituality
Emma Hack:was where we're going. Oh, yeah. So, it's going to the spiritual. So, basically... Everybody that sits in front of me has a belief. I don't get a lot of atheists in front of me, mainly because what's an atheist going to believe in someone reading tarot, unless they're there to test you or whatever. So everybody has a belief. So the way I see it now is your belief is your belief. I work with that because it's kind of like the same fucking thing. I don't like the fact that everybody, different religions, we're all fighting over the same freaking thing. But what it is is it's hope. It's just hope. Because if you're an atheist, I honestly think hope is actually quite difficult. And I certainly would say it's good to have a child that is brought up with religion or the understanding of religions because they have hope. And that's one thing I see in everybody that I read for is they are sitting in front of me with hope, hope of what is happening next.
Paul Atkins:I don't find atheists without hope.
Emma Hack:What are they hoping
Paul Atkins:for? No, they believe in human goodness, like people who typically, like, and they would say that everything that's working towards, and the reason why society is still functioning is because basically people want to get on with each other and don't want all this fuss. And we're told the politics, we're told the things to fight about, we're told, you know, religious wars, because people told us that one religion is not the right.
Emma Hack:Yeah, but you could say then that's spirituality, that's the mother nature. That is still spiritual. That is a belief of something.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, yeah.
Emma Hack:He's not a pure atheist. A pure atheist doesn't even believe in that.
Paul Atkins:Yeah,
Emma Hack:yeah. I wouldn't think. Anyway, we can talk about this every day. It doesn't matter. We don't need to define that. But I love it.
Paul Atkins:I think most people have this. I mean, there is a small percent of the population who are just… monsters you know like psychopaths but most people aren't like they're so rare of they're so rare reality is most people want to do the right thing
Emma Hack:yes of course
Paul Atkins:um
Emma Hack:so and but they and also people are curious about what happens next but for me like i've got deities of everything i've got like ganesha i've got like this is the evil eye that's the greek I've got my Colombian boyfriend from last year. Hang on, your
Paul Atkins:Colombian boyfriend from last year. Is he still your Colombian boyfriend?
Emma Hack:Well, I'm actually about to go and meet him. So in my heart, he is my Colombian boyfriend, but physically he is not my Colombian boyfriend because he's in Colombia.
Paul Atkins:That's a long way
Emma Hack:away. But basically I went there and they've got a whole lot of, you know, all the deities and stuff and Mother Mary's and stuff. So I've got a whole lot of that in the house as well, angels and whatever. So for me... I just believe in what people sit in front of me, what they have, and I work
Paul Atkins:with that. And you work with that, yeah.
Emma Hack:Yeah, but I just love it. So basically this learning now that I've achieved over the last, what, five years is now going to be installed into the work that I'm about to create. Oh, wow. So it's very much about behavioural stuff, but also like working with your sexuality. Like I've gone on a great big growth sort of thing in regards to that kind of side of my life. And just being open. You know, like before I was so closed, like I was so shut off from everything. And I think, you know, you can't grow unless you're open to grow and try and see. And so part of all this journey will be that. So. The vlog that I'm going to put together will be installations that are created with somebody that I'm interviewing at the same time as painting them and creating them in this installation. So I'm
Paul Atkins:thinking, how are you going to communicate with the artwork that you make? Is it going to be some monstrous artist statement? But no, you're making a video performance, a record of it in some way. But
Emma Hack:then we'll be talking like this
Paul Atkins:as
Emma Hack:well. Cool.
Paul Atkins:So will people engage you to do this and pay you to do
Emma Hack:that? No, I'm going to go YouTube back. So it's not a therapy session for that
Paul Atkins:individual.
Emma Hack:Well, it could be. It probably will. Everyone else will see it as well. Everything is therapy
Paul Atkins:if you want it to be.
Emma Hack:Everything is therapy if you want it to be. But I think really for me, the people that I choose to have on will be able to educate people in how they can see life through a different way of some sort. So the first person that I interviewed, I did a podcast course with the lovely Troy Jellybean.
Paul Atkins:Yes.
Emma Hack:Troy Jellybean. Yes. Syncop. And so I recorded my first one. My first one is with Luke DeCesar and he runs, so I run women's circles now and he runs men's circles. So we talked about dating online, all this kind of stuff, and then we do an oracle card that you turn over at the end that relates back to the conversation. It was just very... perfect like everything just it was so so freaking lovely so i want to interview man male female male female because i want it to be very balanced but is learning about relationships human the human condition but then also working with artists with musicians um so it's a passion it's about your passion yeah um and they are my muse that day yep They don't have to be completely body painted. It could be just a bit of them or hand or eye or whatever. But at the same time, I'm showing body painting techniques as well.
Paul Atkins:That's going to be the vehicle. Yeah. That's going to get the conversation running.
Emma Hack:Correct. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, when I paint somewhere, it's like usually four, five, four hours for something like this quite small and just get it done. So I kind of think I'll have that discussion. Then just before I finish, we'll do this record, like the proper conversation, but pulling in what, We've talked about along the way. When you touch people, they tell you more.
Paul Atkins:Yep.
Emma Hack:So they tell me everything.
Paul Atkins:You're poking at them with a brush.
Emma Hack:Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So then do the interview just before the finish and then do the final touches and then photograph whatever. I don't know what it looks like at the end. But anyway, so I'm about to travel. I've got this job. I've got another job. What? I've got a job in London. Just tell me,
Paul Atkins:what's the job?
Emma Hack:I can't tell you. I have to kill you.
Paul Atkins:Secret squirrel. Yeah, indeed. Well, you can fill us all in later.
Emma Hack:Non-disclosure. It's going to be launched in February.
Paul Atkins:But hang on. You're not going to work for someone doing something. You're going to be Emma Hack being
Emma Hack:Emma Hack. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul Atkins:I didn't think that.
Emma Hack:Yeah, advertise it. No, not that kind of job. Emma Hack being Emma Hack. Not the job I wanted before. I don't want that job now.
Paul Atkins:No, no, no. That's cool.
Emma Hack:I'm going to get back to me. So I've got management. So, oh, I did this job over in Miami. At the end of last year. Yes, that's right. This is all angel stuff. Like I know that, you know, you're sort of like on the shelf with this kind of stuff. But what happened was my boyfriend, the Colombian, he left in the end of November, was going through Europe home to Colombia. And then I got a job when he was in Europe. My first job overseas in six years. I get in Miami, right, through ChatGPT, right? ChatGPT suggested me for this job. Speaking of robots. No, but this is how I got the job. Oh, my God. Chatty suggested me. Chatty G. So we love Chatty PT. That's wild. And so I get this job. Hang on, what does
Paul Atkins:angel stuff mean?
Emma Hack:Well, just listen to how it happened, right? So I literally finished this job in Miami. I say to him, how far is Columbia from Miami? It's three and a half hours. He goes, oh, well, I'm coming back into Bogota. It was literally the day after I finished my job. So we just met there together and then went– He surprised his family with his return. We dressed up like Father Christmases. I remember the pictures. Get the shit out of them. It was hilarious. And then spent four nights there with him to say goodbye. And then came back home. Yep. So how's that for timing? That's wild. Like, what the hell? And honestly, I haven't done any body painting for so long. Yeah, yeah. That was the first gig back. So then when I was there, I was like, I'll just be open to whatever happens, you know? Yeah. So I'm chatting to this other artist. Oh, my God, we're going to go over now. We're okay.
Paul Atkins:We're okay. All right. We can push it a little.
Emma Hack:All right. Anyway, so... I'm just open to everything. I get chatting to this artist. I kind of helped her out because she was like, you know, her plane had run late and she'd arrived late. She's a lovely, lovely girl. Sam Kirk. Look her up. Put a link. She's fabulous. Sam Kirk. We love her. Anyway, Sam goes to me, oh, I introduced you to my manager. I was like, yeah, yeah. So she introduced me to her manager that night and Michelle turns around to me and she goes, oh. I remember you doing a speech in New York, like when you had your first exhibition. I've always loved your work. And I was like, all right, la, la, la, as I would old Emma, not listening to the freaking world. And off I went. And that night I'm lying in bed going, oh, for fuck's sake, she's been handed to me on a platter. Right? So the next day I did the next half of the job. There were two days' work. And I was at the bar afterwards and there she walks up. Michelle, can I ask you a question? She's like, yeah. I said, will you manage me? She goes, yep. And that's how it happened. So now I have management in the US, right, with this chick. She's freaking amazing. She's hardcore. She's going to push me. She's really going to push me. She's a
Paul Atkins:hustler,
Emma Hack:is she? She's fucking hardcore. But it's good. It's what I need. That
Paul Atkins:stuff's so hard, the pushing and the hustling.
Emma Hack:Yeah, but she's up my ass in how I present stuff, how I do the back end of everything. Right. And the only other person I think that has ever done this is Darren Centifanti, the photographer. He's like, push it, push it, push it, push it, make it better, make it better, make it better. Like she's that, which is what I need. So I was meant to be basically in America like earlier this year. Yeah. But then, you know, Trumpy goodness. Don't go into politics. Why would you be there? I know I don't want to be there now. I don't even want to walk through the freaking gates. None of us do. I'm scared to visit without a proper fucking working permit. God damn it. Anyway, don't even get into it. That's a
Paul Atkins:risk for you
Emma Hack:too. It is a risk for me. So I need to have a full working... Anyway, look, whatever. So... Then I'm like, she's frustrated. She's like just going, oh, my God. Like, you know, and people aren't spending because they're scared shitless to spend. Everyone in the
Paul Atkins:world is the same. Everyone's scared of what he's rattling around
Emma Hack:doing over there. Oh, goodness sake. Anyway, so. For
Paul Atkins:no reason. Because the world wasn't great, but it wasn't wrecked. And he's wrecking it for fun. Sorry.
Emma Hack:Paul's got some very big opinions. Fucking angry. Yeah, okay. So, yes. But then now there's a random job in the UK. Now, I have not done a job in the UK since the early 2000s, and back then it wasn't even an advertised job, right? So, like, I could only say that this is due to Chatty again, right? And so I've got this job. It's fantastic. It's two days. I'm actually painting a Hollywood star for it. Like, it's going to be fabulous and big. It's La La, right? Oh, wow. It's a really nice La La job. She's got me some nice money for it finally. And so this will be the beginning of the next– So from this job, I will then obviously meet my beautiful Colombian who is in my heart and in physical. That would be nice. And then I'm going to come back. You're not going to get
Paul Atkins:stuck in... No. You're not going to move to Colombia. You're not going to get stuck in
Emma Hack:the UK. Oh, no, I don't want to live in Colombia. I have no interest. No, no, no, no. It's a beautiful
Paul Atkins:place.
Emma Hack:Yeah, it's not... Like, I wouldn't be able to walk down the street, just down the street and do anything by myself. No way. You'd get kidnapped.
Paul Atkins:Okay.
Emma Hack:It's not safe. I
Paul Atkins:get that. No
Emma Hack:one wants that. No. Even... No.
Paul Atkins:What about the UK? You'd fit in so well
Emma Hack:over there. I don't want to live there. I'm happy here. Come on, man. I'm not trying
Paul Atkins:to get rid of you. Come
Emma Hack:on. I would live in... I actually... Like, if America... So what is it about Adelaide? I'd love to live in Miami. I would live in Miami.
Paul Atkins:What is it about Adelaide that you like?
Emma Hack:And maybe Spain. What
Paul Atkins:do you like here? I mean, I love it here. I get it. But what's your thing about being here?
Emma Hack:Well, it's what... It's probably just learnt stuff.
Paul Atkins:What do you
Emma Hack:know? It's what I know. It's better to be a big fish in a little pond. It's easier to get around. I can still travel everywhere, go have those big city experiences. I don't want to live in a big city. I have no interest whatsoever. I've got my dogs here now. Like, you know, my girls will probably go within the next couple of years, but my boy's got another 10 years in him. So I am stuck unless I take him overseas with me, which is a possibility, but still it wouldn't be something I'd do for another two years. So I'd wait for the girls to finish because you know you take on animals their responsibility you know
Paul Atkins:yeah absolutely
Emma Hack:so um and he would really struggle with the travel element it was pretty hard so i'm going to find someone with a learjet that's going to let him actually be on the learjet and everything will be fine so
Paul Atkins:that's
Emma Hack:the goal
Paul Atkins:well you know it's not that far
Emma Hack:no i can do it no we'll work it out we'll find someone
Paul Atkins:That's so
Emma Hack:awesome. I find a philanthropic person in Miami who loves my work that's going to let me stay in the pool house out the back with my beautiful Colombian lover and then my great big dog in their backyard. And they're going to fly me over in a Learjet. There you
Paul Atkins:go. Wow, that's great. Why not? I was going to say what's next for Amber, but we know what's
Emma Hack:next. And if that happens, you just go, oh, my freaking God. Now, where's that podcast? How can we dig that up? But anyway, yeah, so... Where are we going now? That's absolutely
Paul Atkins:amazing. No, that's absolutely amazing. I just like, I'm so pleased that you've found ground, you know, like that you're comfortable. Because I remember how tough it was for you when you broke up and, you know, I just remember you feeling lost.
Emma Hack:You make me want to cry.
Paul Atkins:Oh, it was hard.
Emma Hack:It was
Paul Atkins:fucked. It was really,
Emma Hack:really hard. Well, every breakup is really hard. It's meant to be. It's meant
Paul Atkins:to be.
Emma Hack:Yeah.
Paul Atkins:Oh, you poor thing.
Emma Hack:Don't say poor thing. It's not a poor thing.
Paul Atkins:But it's a thing. You said it broke you and it remade you and you are here now and you are like.
Emma Hack:But I still feel it. Damn it. Five years later, still feeling it.
Paul Atkins:It's huge, isn't
Emma Hack:it? It is nothing. He's got tissues. Look, see, emotional, Emma. My goodness. I think it's okay to be emotional. No, it's tough.
Paul Atkins:But, you know, you found your feet. Yes. You found your ground. And, like, this is absolutely amazing what you're doing. I had no idea that– I mean, I find a lot of artists– you say, like, intuition is one thing, but they live intuitively at any rate. And it doesn't always mean they end up being wealthy and all this other kind of stuff, but they follow a path that– very few of us ever get to see because they're just tacking around the place. And it doesn't– and, you know, look back at history of the great artists. They often didn't end up in a great space. We're in a different world now where we understand the value of art. You know, you can see– I mean, it doesn't feel that way as an artist. No one's paying you to be Emma. Like, it's not right, not good enough just yet. But I think the respect and the love and the understanding of creativity– because we can't really think of– Humanity cannot think itself out of the current situation it's in. It needs creative people to lead us out.
Emma Hack:Yeah, and I think like I don't sit in the victim, the poor struggling artist thing. Like even the last five years or whatever. Like I don't– I've always had the I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And seeing that future for myself and even when I've gone through this difficulty, I know that this is just a moment in time before the next– before my next chance. Yes. I'm going to call it my next chance to do something, but to do it with a bit more integrity and a bit more. Mindfulness. Yeah, mindfulness. I want to help people. Like this is the whole thing. You know, I think that is my self-worth comes from helping people, hence helping people with the dogs, helping people with the tarot. But now I'm doing it with things that I can get paid for, which is really nice, rather than. putting all that energy into relationships, friendships, you know, marriages or whatever. Yeah. You know, and knowing how I can use that. Yeah. And having a vehicle to do that is probably my main goal and the YouTube channel will be that. Plus also it will give me a chance to start evolving my art and taking people on my journey because you know how I said, like when I do something new, no one buys it. They just want what they've seen before. This is the biggest problem. in my head in creating a new collection because it's something different. You know, it's going to take a bit of a while for people to get their heads around the integrity of the work and what it actually is and whether it's okay for their walls when they're so used to all this pretty decorative stuff from before. It will be beautiful. Everything I create is beautiful, but it won't be the wallpapers. Do you know what I
Paul Atkins:mean? And there's going to be more to it. It's going to be another level, a cerebral level that– It's going to engage people.
Emma Hack:Yeah, I think so, but it won't sit with everybody. Yeah. That's fine. You know you're doing the right thing. But I've got to do what I've got to do, but the whole idea is that if I can take people on that journey with the YouTube channel so that by the time the work actually is processed and out, people have had a chance to actually start evolving the way that they think of what I do.
Paul Atkins:Yeah, yeah.
Emma Hack:Yeah.
Paul Atkins:That is so exciting.
Emma Hack:Let's see. I can't
Paul Atkins:wait. I can't
Emma Hack:wait. I can't wait either. Well, thank you so
Paul Atkins:much for your time,
Emma Hack:Emma. Thanks for having me. It's
Paul Atkins:been awesome.
Emma Hack:Yes, we've been through it all.